That's why I'm always paranoid about cables! (I do them anyway.)
Figures!! I've had that one in my queue for ages, good thing you did it first :)
I get it! ...but who's on first?
Maybe the instructions should read "We know that you wanted to knit the sweater in the picture, but we have decided to provide you with these intructions instead. Good luck and happy knitting."
I just knew this could happen - ever vigilant!
Which leads me to wonder: will you leave the right wrong and make the left right, which is actually wrong or will you use your mad knitting skillz to make them both right, by which I do not mean that they are both right sides, which I suppose is also an option.
Dang! I mean, I know you'll sort it out and knit it the way you like it and looks great (which, to my taste is the pattern photo swatch version at the bottom), but what about the rest of us who are cable-challenged?
Oh dear. Yes. Well. They tried, the dear things. And you may well be the first person awake enough to see where they went wrong. Personally, with cables, I prefer charts -- done properly (i.e., using clear diagrams to show which way the cables are traveling), the chart itself should look enough like the finished cable pattern that you would see it wasn't right. I did like the pattern (lace knitting, as it happened) that had the preamble: It will help if you can "see" your knitting. This cardigan seems to be in that category -- conceptually complicated but visually more straightforward. (More being a truly comparative term...)
Is it also possible that the image was flipped inadvertently in the magazine production process which might then give you a totally different set of rights and wrongs?
My head hurts! I've barely reached the 'check for errata' stage, and now have to consider that the corrections might be incorrect, too? Oy, vei!
That makes my head hurt...
That makes my head hurt...
I think I'll go lie down now.
That's just all kinds of wrong.
I think I'll stick to garter stitch.
I get it. And I'm off now to burn that particular magazine so I won't be tempted to knit that sweater. (Which is a shame, because it's really nice...)
Maybe time to choose another cardigan? :)
O dear God. The mind reels!
Dude! you're awesome! I like the "two wrongs make a correct" set of cables as opposed to "two rights" make the "wrong" cables. :)
What a gorgeous cardigan! Whenever I do patterns anymore, I research them on Ravelry. I read other people's notes to see if there's any issues and most of the ones I pick certainly do. It makes me impatient to knit, but is totally worth it in the end.
Personally I like the right front cable, right?
Yea and call me crazy, but the left front original looks nicest to me!
Oh dear. What a mess. You know what I'd do in that situation? Go knit something else. Maybe come back to it once getting to the point where I could contemplate ripping both sides back without becoming a seething ball of rage.
Oddly enough, I like the "wrong" cables better than the "right" ones from the magazine.
total sense to my math mind!
also reminds me of fighting with my hubby. no you're wrong. okay, i was wrong, no we're both wrong, no you're wrong but i won't point it out cuz i want to take the high road, then i become human and tell you so...
Got it...don't knit Vogue.
Any time I knit cables they're such a surprise to me anyway. This probably would have killed me.
Don't you just hate it when errata does you wrong? It's a good thing you're a good problem solver.
I had the same problem when working on some sleeves with cables. It was me, not the pattern that was wrong, but even so - I ended up ripping back both sleeves, starting over, finishing and ripping them out again. THREE times, to be exact!
It's a good thing I love knitting.
you're making my brain bleed. haven't attacked cables yet - seems like they conspire to whip the arse of even the most intrepid knittah. I have no hope, then!
Vogue Knitting. *sigh*
I've just recently learned that they're apparently notorious for error-laden patterns. Here I had this sort of lofty idea that "Oh, it's Vogue, they really must set the bar high!"
Just last week I cast on the Botanica Medallion Cardigan from the most recent VK issue.
There was an error in the THIRD ROW. I couldn't even get this thing cast on past the initial 6 stitches without having to try to figure out how on earth I was managing to mess up SIX STITCHES. Oh, it wasn't me. It was the pattern.
And the next THREE times that I was unable to figure out how I was messing up -- it was the pattern, too.
This pattern didn't take up an entire magazine page, but it had four errors throughout.
As an editor myself, I understand that these things happen and understand the special difficulty in editing patterns that are nothing but letters and numbers. But I can assure you that if I ever had four errors in one *article* that I would no longer have my "editor" job title.
It's extraordinarily disappointing for me, because I'm not yet quite at the level of skill and trust to know "the problem isn't me, it's the pattern" as quickly as more experienced and confident knitters. So I'll frog and reknit something five times (as I did on the cardigan) before I'll blame the pattern. Much like learning to do proper gauge swatches, I'm learning that researching and printing Errata before starting a pattern is a must, but had I not been waiting to receive my yarn for this project, I'd have been happily knitting away on it before the errors were even posted.
Thanks for killing that last brain cell I was coddling. lol.
I think my brain is going to explode!! I hope you add comments to the ravelry page that include the correct revisions.
Does anything ever go your way?
I kinda dig the "wrong" version of that cable but if that's not what you're aiming for, I can see there might be a problem. Unlike others' experiences, I've never had a problem with Vogue Knitting patterns. But I do realize that I tend to do my own thing in the context of any pattern and often don't realizing I'm not following the pattern!
That's impressive. I'm glad you figured that out.
(And thank heavens for the errata notification, which truly does make out lives easier)
I am just blown away that you can correct the cables to look so beautiful. (The final set, of course!) I can usually see where I want to go but have no idea how to make the cables get there!
This is why I don't knit. It makes my head hurt to try and figure these things out!
So let's head over here. Anyone able to tell the nice medieval headdress expert what that is in the picture?
Jane, trying not to look at the cable pictures here in CH
Ouch. My head hurts!
(btw, should I bring Amish whoopie pies - those double cakes with the creamy filling that I gave you in Philadelphia last spring - to the Sock Summit?)
All I could think of was all this left and right and right and left, when what you are doing is going to read up and down! Oh what we knitter do when we think we are enjoying ourselves!
That sounds a bit like my rabbit agility students last night trying to guide their rabbits through the course. To go left, put your right foot out to tell the rabbit to also go left (away from the foot), only this means you have to remember both the direction (left) you want to go and to use the opposite (right) foot. My poor beginners were having issues - "is it 'go left use right foot to guide', or 'go right use left foot to guide'? Luckily, most of the grade goes to the rabbits, who generally did just fine. :)
I almost, sort of get it. I think.
I get it, and feel terribly happy that I'm not making that pattern. I can correct the cables on the fly, but I feel that with a decent pattern (especially a 2+ year old pattern) I shouldn't have to.
That's hysterical. I get that confused about stuff in my day-to-day life - which means I should stay far, far away from that sweater. Thanks for the PSA!
This is why I was SO obsessive with my shawl patterns! To never ever ever do to someone something like that that was my fault, not theirs. Yowsers.
Keep in mind that Vogue doesn't have a good history with cables. Remember the cover sweater a few years back with the rather obvious cable mistake?
I get what you did there with the errata, but the two cables that you produced are not quite mirror images of each other, thus the errata is way wrong and in your list, #4 should read:
Unfortunately, since the right front is already wrong, making the left front wrong in a slightly different way now makes both of them mismatched but not in an obvious way, which means that they are both now totally incorrect, which is great if you don't want to make the sweater in the picture. In either case both the left and the right are now wrong and the space-time continuum has folded upon itself after the correction.
Luckily, numbers 1-3, 5 and 6 are correct.
Yep. I get it. I'm never knitting that sweater!!!! he he
Ack, sorry about the double posts, there. The blog's hive mind seems to be a bit overwhelmed by the cable corrections, too!
I have been knitting cable patterns for a long time, mostly Aran patterns. I can tell you that the ones you knit from the pattern are totally wrong. (I don't mean you knit them wrong, the pattern is written wrong.)
Cables are supposed to look like cables, or wires, or ropes. When you pull each end of the "cables" you should be left with a plait effect. The ones you knit from the pattern would leave you with a tatty mess if you pulled on the cables.
If you can't knit them from the picture to give you the right look I would say abandon this project. There are lot's of great patterns to make without wasting your time on something that's going to look like trash.
I feel sorry for the designer. Someone at the magazine has made there hard work a total waste of time.
so that would be errata-tat-tat-tat
I feel your pain.
The very first VK pattern (it was a crazy-complex traveling cable design) was so not like the picture that I had to re-write a good half of it. Thinking I could save some other poor knitter the trouble, I sent my lengthy corrections to VK and explained the problem. That was two years ago. They have yet to make any sort of correction that I can find. I am now very wary of all their patterns and assume that if something appears wrong, it is their error, not mine.
Isn't there a proverb somewhere here, like two wrongs don't make a right?
I don't know. (THIRD BASE!)
Holy cow! I think I have a headache! I actually see exactly what you are saying though.....scary.
Okay, even if one of the cables is correct and the other had to be changed, neither of them look like the photo. The photo is not correct. That would make me remarkably angry, if the pattern did not produce the object I chose based on a photo.
Yup, I get it. :o)
Your cables look lovely.
Oh my shattered nerves-- I don't do cables thank goodness but I too have had trouble with patterns in magazines. Doesn't anyone proof read these things before they go to press anymore ? My sister told me to hold onto all the really old patterns because they were the best and now I know why.
"I'm my own grandpaw. . ."
You are so good. I can't believe that you could explain that so well. Hard too, to believe that a 2006 pattern still doesn't have correct errata.
I just finished unpacking a fairly large order and decided to take a break and read your blog...I thought I was dizzy before sitting down, now its worse..I will try again later.
Wow. Good thing you knit fast; I'd've given up long since.
My head hurts. Perhaps you should have some screech and it will make sense?
Oh, Vogue. I love them so much, and yet I swear they don't have enough test knitters. Mostly I haven't had problems, but there was one pattern for an adorable lacy cardigan where one front panel had 7 4-row repeats, and the other had 6. I had reworked it to be done in the round, so there wasn't a problem, but still.
(Then again - this IS Vogue. Hm.)
Vogue Knitting just sucks, don't they!
I've been reading them for twenty years, and kicking at them that long, and somehow I'm still shocked they can't even get their corrections right.
But it's just like them.
those cables look the same to me...
as long as i don't look too closely. Which kind of knitter were you again? Process or product?
I think my brain is bleeding a little bit.
I would be mad that the picture and the pattern did not match up, but I think that the "wrong" cables look much more beautiful than the "right" ones. If it was not that the pattern was trying to make one and not the other it really would just be a matter of opinion. In a way you now have two patterns for the price of one!
Oh, my head! I like the pattern as photographed, but now knowing there is an error, not just in the pattern, but in the corrected pattern which would have me knit another pattern... Does VougeKnitting understand that we are human, and sensitive to their torments? I guess this means you'll pull out graph paper and produce a correct reverse image? Because my only other thought is to have a big bonfire, and use lots of gasoline.
Ok then. I've got it. I don't like it though!! Either cable is lovely, though. I began the Canopy cardigan all excited and going full speed ahead. And my little leaves did not look like the picture at all. I tried it three times and still could't figure out what I was doing wrong. Must go see if someone else had troubles with it... I would hate to think it was only me! But likely it is. :/
I'll just be skipping this one.
Stephanie - just use the same brain cells that you used when you "mirrored" the cables in the Must-Have Cardigan. Thanks for warning us about the land mines inherent in the Vogue pattern. Good to know!
Please do not post more wrong errata cable issues until after I finish my Cables and Ribs Cardigan, okay? The left front panel is done up to the armhole and I have started to decrease.
The right front panel is still a daydream in yarn.
Please, for the love of wool, do not warp my mind with any more erroneous errata. I might never garner up the gumption to cast on for the other half of the front and what's a cardigan with one back, one left front, and a left sleeve (since there would be no where to hook in a right sleeve)?
:: runs screaming from room ::
Isn't knitting supposed to be fun? I think I would have slit my wrists if I were working that pattern....too much work for me. But thanks for the warning.
Yikes! That's why I venture out only briefly to knit cables and lace. I would go crazy until I determined what was wrong and wouldn't think about the 'errata page until WAY later!
BTW, although the 2 wrongs do not make a right, three rights do make a left!
You lost me at the little yellow triangle.
Oy gevalt, what a mess! Fortunately, cables are a lot easier to "see" as they develop than lots of other types of knitting, at least for me, which makes spotting errors (usually my own) easier than with, say, lace, where I frequently end up wadding it up and throwing it in a corner, and then a year later frogging it.
The question is: Are the cables supposed to be mirror image? If so, they just make sure one side of the pattern matches the (correct) photo, and then flip it over to get the corrected version for the other side.
There's something wrong with the world when even the errata is wrong, too, though!
Vogue pattern instructions are crazy mad. Start from that assumption and you won't go wrong, left or right, up or down, twisted or straight.
The beautiful shawl that you just made, came out with an Errata. I copied it out for myself because I have the gorgeous yarn coming to make it. Thank God, I didn't start it. Penny
that made my head hurt. I hear vogue is notorious for mistakes in their patterns, you have just confirmed it.
I'm just amazed that you made and photo'd the cables for us - I would have just thrown the whole thing to the back of the closet and made another pair of socks.
I'm not sure I ever would have noticed this. Right, left, wrong, right. Which way is up???
Mamma always said two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case, well, I'm really too lost to tell. Good luck!
Easy peasy: just remember that two wrongs CAN make a right (and also a left). That's all you ned to do and you're good to go on with your day.
Please stop. You are making my head hurt. I shall retire to my Fish Hat now. (Easy-peasy. Knit. Decrease. Knit. Aaaaah.)
Easy peasy: just remember that two wrongs CAN make a right (and also a left). That's all you need to do and you're good to go on with your day.
Okay, I'm a little freaked out that two of us used "easy-peasy" in such close proximity. Get out of my head, HJK!
I would have ripped large chunks of hair out over this. Ugh!
Errata happen but Vogue's reputation is such that I always check their site before picking up the needles. They really need to invest in a good tech editor or two.
Non-wrong. Am SO stealing this phrase before my teenagers see it.
I was surprised that I totally followed the sequence of events and erroneous erratae thanks to your most excellent explanation. Spontaneous brain combustion must be imminent...
I made a dress for my daughter when she was a little girl from a Vogue sewing pattern, and it was so off she wouldn't have been able to breathe if we buttoned the neck. And I followed that pattern to the last millimeter.
I wrote to tell them there was a problem and they sent back the snottiest reply ever that suggested it was all my fault and their patterns were always perfect.
No Vogue for me. I don't trust 'em even a little bit.
Thanks for clearing this up...
So...right is wrong, and wrongs can be righted?
:voiceover: This has been your Daily Canuck Philosophy Minute, brought to you by our own CCC (Clever Canuck Cupcake) and sponsored by VKN (Vogue Knitting--NOT).
Stephanie, you are made of tougher stuff than me. I'd have picked another pattern after torching the first one.
Trying to comprehend that = brain hurting.
Does this mean that you were saved by swatching?
Call me a traditionalist (too), but I like the original left front with the cable w/in a cable pattern - always looks so clever and clean. Also, I love having Ravelry to poke holes in all the little idiosyncrasies of knitting. Thanks to them, I corrected the cable work on Estes Vest so that the charts matched the picture... I would have never caught the 1-stitch difference on my own, and would have probably always wondered why it didn't look quite right.
Oh my, yes, the corrected version was also wrong for even the wrong side. (the person who provided a revised #4 is right).
I do like what the picture says that the cables should be though.
Thanks for blogging this. I feel so much better about the first (and only, and disastrous) time I ventured into lace knitting following a Vogue pattern.
Glass of merlot, please.
Seeing all of these other comments about the "quality" of Vogue's patterns and publication reliability makes me wonder: Just what *does* it take for a publisher like VK to clean up its act?
I'll admit, I'm part of the problem because, errors aside, I still enjoy looking at the shiny pictures, reading the book reviews, checking out the new yarn retailers, etc. I was frustrated upon finding the errors in the Medallion Cardigan, but despite that, I'll confess -- I won't be able to bring myself to cancel my subscription over it. I can't quit you!
It especially saddens me to read that some of those who have submitted corrections have been ignored and/or received rude and snotty replies. In my work, when I receive a correction to an article in one of my publications from a subscriber, I immediately run an alert correcting the detail, thank the subscriber personally for pointing out the error, and extend his or her subscription by an extra issue or give a discount on a future purchase.
Taking a defensive attitude to a friendly correction is a sign of greater weakness in the system at large.
Owwww! My brain hurts!
As far as which cable is right, I have only one word to say -- Personal Design Option! Oh, wait...
you made my brain hurt, or rather, Vogue did.
I had a similar thing happen with the chart for John's Sweater from Berroco -- a chart is included with the free pattern, and it's a perfectly good chart, but it does not produce the pattern shown in the picture.
I figured (with terrific help from multiple people at my LYS) out how to correct the chart and knit my husband an very nice sweater. I even got one of my pictures chosen by Nora herself for the pattern page at Ravelry.
That gave me enough gumption to write a note to the web-pattern person at Berroco, even giving her the chart I corrected. She said she'd see about getting a correction up, which I hope will happen eventually.
Aw snap, that is so lame!! How irritating that no one thought to double check the corrections... Don't you feel awesome though, being able to figure it out on your own?
Here's where it come in really handy to be a left-handed mirror knitter. I hardly ever read cable instructions, because my left is right and my right is left and the righties who rule the world don't talk to me. I just look at the pictures and figure out how to get my desired set of crossings.
This must be what they call "advanced knitting."
It's knitting, not morality. Who cares from "right" and "wrong"? But, right or wrong, I prefer the photo version of the cables to the instructions.
yes! sadly i DO get it! sigh... but do you think VOGUE gets it? ;)
First off, I guessed right on which sweater you were after... Woot!
I get it and I like the cables as they're on the model. :)
LMAO! So which wrong did you go with? Or is is which correct? You are right, the pattern probably should match the picture!
BTW, just finishing up my first Baby Mine and it struck me (or rater, re-confirmed) how clever *I* know you to be! Holy crap--GRAFT the stitches under the arms together! And here my first 'Sweater in the Round' class had required us to bind-off, then seam! You are true cleverness!
you should ask the guy, in the place, with the thing if he can be any help.......
Ouch! I feel a cerebral hemmorhage coming on....
Makes a cable stitch out of my brain just thinking about it...
OMG and therein lies the reason one should write their own patterns!!
and i've gotta say i don't actually like that "corrected" cable... i like the cable in the picture, so thanks for the tip harlot!
Is there such a thing as errata for errata? Or would that be written as errata times two, or errata squared?...........
If you really want to go screaming into the night try and find the correct errata for Lily Chins Lace Dress...the red one in the Holiday 2007 issue... Vogue is notorious for always having mistakes.....who exactly is the test knitter? betcha the proof reader doesn't knit..lol
After working all day...and now this...my head is just a spinning...lol...but really two wrongs do make a right...
That's not even the worst I've encountered. A very frustrated woman came into the yarn shop I work at and was relieved when I explained to her that the cable in the pattern picture was completely different from the one given in the Patons pattern! She was even more relieved when I wrote out a chart based on the photo for her.
Hold it, hold it. We're on to you. This is your cunning plan to evoke sympathy in the impatient breasts of The Cowl Contingent. You plan to reduce them to a state of mingled sympathy and terror so they'll quit clamoring for the test knitters to release the pattern.
Nice try. Nearly worked.
Why is it always Vogue that I hear these things about? You'd think they'd get a kaizan team together to figure out how they can make the pattern editing process more efficient and accurate. Since I started knitting I have always heard of Vogue's reputation for error riddled patterns. They have beautiful stuff. But I'm reluctant to knit it until several years have passed and other knitters have figured out all the errors before I get to it.
I lost you.. I'm not drinking a beer and I'm not planning on knitting anything from a Vogue knits magazine. I have knit some stuff in the "best of" books, I've not run into problems. but I *thank* you for saving me from the pain that you have undergone...
Curse whichever proto-Anglican it was who decided that the opposite of left and the opposite of wrong should be represented by the same combination of five letters.
Excuse me, my hair just lit on fire, my brains just exploded and ran out of my nose, and it's time for me to run out of the house screaming.
Let me know if you get that little conundrum worked out so I can come back home and soak my head.
This is one of the reasons I make up my own patterns. It absolutely FRIES MY GIZZARDS to work really hard to follow a pattern and find errors.
so, you mean to tell me that i should go through all of the projects i tossed aside after frustrations and try again? you mean i may be a pretty good knitter and i can stop making scarves? i can't tell begin to tell you what a great boost i feel!! thank you harlot!
The only question to ask it why would they fix the correct left side and not the incorrect right side.
Unless, of course, they think that the left side was wrong and the right was right. But really makes no sense if you think about it.
And from what I read from the previous posts, it makes me wonder if my subscription to Vogue is worth the money...
Hmm, I thought Vogue was supposed to be all posh and perfect and everything....
God bless you for figuring all of that out, I would have given up. I've only been knitting for 7 years, maybe by the time I get 36 years of knitting experience under my belt, I too will not be daunted by figuring out which right is wrong. Job well done :o)
Wow, I never would have been able to figure that out!
Errata does not meam corrections, errata means errors. Errata = list of errors (Webster).
Is anyone going to tell Vogue and Ravelry about this?
From looking at the two pictures of the pattern cables it looks like all they actually did was knit one side, and then using photo editting software they "flipped" it to produce the mirror image. I know this doesn't help you to decide which is right/which is wrong, but hey, if they didn't take the time to actually knit both they probably don't know that their errata is right/wrong! LOL!
Maybe I'll just wear my sweater inside-out.
I ran into 2 patterns in the same book that drove me crazy . I could not get either to come out correctly -- a lace pattern in a shrug was the worst. After assumming I couldn't knit to save my soul and a dozen aborted row attempts, a light bulb went on above my head-errata !!! As I looked through several pages (yes,several) I realized that every time something doesn't work I won't assume it is my mistake. Now I am sometimes smart enough to look for errata before I start a pattern. Sadly, only sometimes.
I am amazed at the books and patterns that have a high incidence of errata-- and why do the "test" knitters not notice that they too can't make the lace come out correctly?
And where can we buy the Rogue Roses pattern??
Ravelry or STR don't seem to have a spot to click "buy now".
Is it sad that the only real concern I had was that the 'correct' way to do this was with the cables vertically intertwining? For some reason, the way the errata had it made me twitchy and I was relieved when you corrected it back to match the original left front. Way to go bizarre geometrical idiosyncrasies!
That takes me back to my first college semester algebra class. Classmate and I had decided we were in the wrong place when after three days of both of us getting the same wrong answer to a problem over and over. Neither of us even considered that a math book for which we had paid nearly a hundred dollars could have a mistake in it. That was only the first of many many mistakes in every godawful expensive text book. There oughta be a law.......
This is why one should never hire a dyslexic tech editor.
P.S. Three lefts won't make a right either.
Yeah, there's a reason I stopped buying Vogue and wrote them a "****in' jihad on YOU!" letter (a la M. Izzard). Life is too short, dude. Sorry about your cablecchh.
Oooer. Just reading that ... I now need a glass of wine, a couch, and something in garter stitch to work on.
I stopped reading cable charts and directions long ago. Now I just knit it according to the photo, or else according to how I think it should look.
It occurs to me that I've been knitting for about 40 years, though, so maybe you've got a few more years before you pitch the patterns in the dustbin.
The first and last photos are the cable to go with.
Ye gods. This is why I don't knit things with cables in them.
If your brain is fried, go take a look at the Martha's Vineyard Fiber Farm lambcam. They have had 6 or 8 (I lost count) baby goats - kids - born today. And there are some that are a day or two old. You can't believe the cuteness. I've been glued.
And you put the pattern right into the shredder, didn't you? Or are you actually going to knit this beast? How many other errata will she find people? Wagers anyone?
@Sarah W.: Yes! $10 on our fair Harlot "freaking the frak out" within 48 hours (72 if she's got lots else to do).
Hilarity with Photos! This was so funny, I read it out loud for the full effect.
The bottom line... trust your instincts and check the errata page ...then knit-on with what fits!
aaaaand now my head hurtz!
Ask me sometime about my experience with Jamieson patterns--I'm 2 for 2 in finding errors that either 1) the published errata didn't actually fix but were a word for word reprint of the original, flawed pattern or 2) didn't believe me when I wrote the editor multiple times to tell him that the math was wrong. Thank goodness for math teachers who always told you to "SHOW YOUR WORK". Only once I showed him did he believe me & contact the designer for the corrections (which are still not posted on the errata page, BTW...)But at least I'm not bitter.
"6. The right side is wrong, and the left side is right, so the errata to the left now needs to be right, both technically and figuratively."
You are going to write them about it, right?
We wouldn't want them to be left out of the loop.
Not that it will do any good. Back in the sixties I read a Vogue sewing pattern for a dress. I can still quote the complete instructions: "Sew the bodice. Attach the skirt. Don't forget to include the belt."
I am not joking.
But how many times did you knit the left right and the right wrong or the left wrong and the right right before you knit the left and right right??
does knitting need to be so hard
I knew there was a reason I liked Interweave Knits better....
I knew there was a reason I hadn't tried cables yet.
I've been annoyed with VK for some time... I knitted the sleeves and as I neared the caps, well, it was just wrong. I emailed and they sent a correction - since I had learned that they can't do math, I checked their math (used my fingers and toes) before putting yarn to needle. You guessed it, the correction was wrong. I rewrote the damn thing myself.
I just let my subscription lapse. There are plenty of other quality sources for patterns.
And don't get me started on some of their stupid designs and getups they put their models in...
I love it when you talk Monty Pythonish... or is it Professor Cory.. he was the cutest little guy that used to be on the Mike Douglas talk show in the afternoon back in the early 70's.. he was a hoot.. anyway i get it.. hee..hee.. karola
Cables, smables. Hasn't anyone twigged to the fact that modular knitting is like cables with the potential cubed for mistakes to creep in? Translation: am I the only person in the world who thinks that the instructions for the 'Magique Cloak complex square in Knits from a Painter's Palette' are cryptic in the extreme, and I don't know whether I'm the world's stupidest knitter, or if there is a mistake (shurely not!) in the pattern?
Left as you look at it or left as you wear it. Someone must have been confused......... Glad you figured it out finally.
As my dad used to say when my brother and I fought, "two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do."
One word: FUDGESICLES!!!!! and you know the word that I really mean!
I have made two things out of Vague Knitting this year (one from the classic men's issue from 2000). Both of them had mistakes, and there are no published errata for either of them. It's really not good enough!
I understood exactly what you were trying to explain, but I've never done cables, and now I probably never will. Not from a Vogue pattern anyway. When I was planning my wedding, my mom volunteered to sew my wedding dress, and we picked out a Vogue pattern. Then she kind of chickened out and we bought my dress. Maybe it's a good thing. Who knows what I might have ended up wearing had we gone with the original plan. It's bad enough to have errata in a knitting pattern, which can be frogged, but a mistake in a sewing pattern, which might only be discovered after one has taken scissors to it and turned all that expensive fabric into a pile of crap, well, there's no returning from that. No amount of tequila shooters could sooth the grief.
So. What came first? The chicken or the egg?
I dunno - glad you got it fingered out...
I think that is why they are called Vague Knitting instead of Vogue Knitting! The stories I could tell...
That's why I gave up my subscription to Vogue, errata on top of errata.
Some of us in the US have been thinking for quite a while that the right is wrong and the left is right - but we too have had quite a challenge getting things going in the 'correct' direction. Here's hoping....
M-H, you got it right (or left?!) it's
Vague Knitting! I don't think they actually do test knit their patterns - not with actual knitters!
I'm one of the people who LOVE cables, and I'd much rather do cables than colorwork. It's really not hard, so don't give up, just learn to read charts.
I've knit many things from Vogue (I like the Vague comment ;) Knitting and found that the more recent issues have become much worse in terms of error checking. I think, although I'd need to go find my copy, that that is the same issue I knit a pullover from for a friend for Xmas 2 years ago. It also was cabled and it also had an error I had to stop and consider before,changing it and continuing on. Although it didn't modify the cable, it did change the knitted background (behind the cable - which for obvious reasons really doesn't look right) which was only listed in one section of the pattern, to purl stitches, which matched the rest of the sweater...
The current effort from VK is a sweater that, while looks good on the model, must be written for the oddest sizes on the planet as I've had to modify practically all parts of it so it will appropriately fit the friend I'm knitting it for. With this much effort, I should have just written the darn thing myself...
Your blog today was perfect. One of the girls in our Thursday knitting group was trying to knit the sweater on the cover of Vogue's Spring/Summer 09 magazine and couldn't get the count to come out right. Sure enough there were corrections to the pattern. However, I think there are still mistakes they haven't corrected.
Yikes - a good reminder that I'm not the one that's wrong, or right... oh dear, now which is it?
If it helps, I like the corrected cable from the errata best.
LOVE the new name: Vague Knitting. It is like a Mad Magazine for knitters!
I am pretty new to knitting anything beyond a basic sock. Where does one fine "errata"/corrections? Only on Ravelry?
Is there a reliable knitting magazine out there?
Re another comment before mine: I DID have a shot of my husband's scotch to combat the start of a hovering headcold about 20 minutes before reading the Harlot's blog. The convoluted explanation and the scotch were a nice mix....
LOVE the new name: Vague Knitting. It is like a Mad Magazine for knitters!
I am pretty new to knitting anything beyond a basic sock. Where does one find "errata"/corrections? Only on Ravelry?
Is there a reliable knitting magazine out there?
Re another comment before mine: I DID have a shot of my husband's scotch to combat the start of a hovering headcold about 20 minutes before reading the Harlot's blog. The convoluted explanation and the scotch were a nice mix....
I love the correcting the right-ness of it all.
Another good part of Ravelry? If you read the comment for the pattern you will see that you are correct, and the errata is wrong, and it appears that someone has attempted to correct the corrected pattern.
Wow, an errata that needs an errata! I admire your tenacity, I would have tossed the sweater in the knitting basket and curled up on the couch and cried.
Jeepers Lady....by George I thing you've got it!
This is one of the few times I'm thankful that my small Canadian backwater of Whistler, BC (though mostly I don't get how it can take months for a wee envelope to travel 3 hours across the border from the publisher) gets knitting magazines SO late that the whole of the US and Europe AND Australia have struggled with / knit a design before I get around to thinking "that looks kind of cool...."
So...let me get this straight, you're trying to tell me that if the left is right and the right is wrong but if you make the left wrong then.. two wrongs can make a right? Heresy!
I like the cables in the uncorrected version but I'm also the same person who when she messed up a 2x2 rib on her first sock, decided to call it a mock cables. I can not be trusted to follow instructions.
Wait, isn't that the whole point of cables--the right becomes the left, the left becomes the right, which becomes the left again. . .right?
I'm a much slower knitter than you, by the time I would have realized the error I would have dissolved into tears - weeks of work gone to waste - it would have taken more than a glass of wine to return to cheer.
When I was younger I used to sew clothing quite a bit, and never once tried a Vogue pattern.
You have just explained the reason why. I always found them frustrating and not quite right.
Maybe it was just me, but then again, maybe not...
And the proper left cable is an awful lot nicer looking than the improper right cable that should be corrected to match the proper left one--and I haven't seen the pattern or the picture. I once did an entire sleeve cable backwards, and not wanting to start over, dropped just the cable stitches down the whole sleeve and picked them back up properly. Whew! Not easy, but faster than redoing the whole thing, as well as presenting a new challenge...
My mother always says that if there is a way to take something simple and make it difficult, then Vogue will find it. And then they'll ask you to do it sideways, with your elbow in your ear.
I always knit cables from the photo not from the pattern,as I have found so many 'errata' over the years. Specially in things like Vague Knitting. Sounds as if someone should shoot the designer! But - have fun!
Personally, I like the original pattern better, mostly since it gives it a more defined look. But it took me a little while to get it. It helps a lot to just zoom out. Which probably also explains why I don't catch errors until much much later.
I AM making that sweater...and I said 'cables'?
Ahhhhh Screw it! I am making it in Stockinette, amd we are getting along nicely!
LOL!!! That's just a riot! The first sweater I ever knit was a Debbie Bliss pattern. Ravelry wasn't around and I didn't even know that errata existed. I ripped that sucker out at least 5 times, swearing up a storm and lamenting on what a terrible, horrible, hopeless knitter I was. Eventually. after many tears, tons of frustration, and hair pulling (I swear I had a bald patch going LOL!) I decided that even though I wasn't the brightest bulb on the planet, I wasn't the dimmest either, so maybe there was something wrong with the pattern. I went searching online and voila! I found errata! Sure enough, it was the pattern that was messed up, not me. (At least that time!) The worst part was that since I was a brand spanking new sweater knitter it had never occurred to me that maybe I wasn't the one who was doing it wrong! That I was following the directions and doing it properly, so it was someone with more knitting pattern experience who had messed up! What an empowering thing to realize! Granted most of the time when something doesn't work out properly it's my fault, but once in a while it's not. I can't even imagine having made part of a sweater right, then ripping it out because the correction that told you how to fix the part of the pattern that was incorrect, instead made the part of the pattern that was correct incorrect! So the bigger question here is what is that what does a knitter call errata that is wrong, un-errata? An incorrect pattern addendum? Ugh! It's enough to make a knitter throw their needles in the air in total frustration.
I'd suggest fire as a correct application to this whole problem, but I'm guessing the sweater is wool, and you probably want to wear it at some point. In that case, then alcohol and chocolate should make that errata problem go away nicely.
I just love this kind of crap. As if is wasn't messy enough in the first place, they made it worse! I know it's Vogue Knitting, but does Vogue (parent company) think knitters are so dumb they wouldn't notice? Or do they figure nobody actually knits their patterns anyway, so what difference would it make? Now THERE'S an attitude to ponder.
VAGUE STRIKES AGAIN!!!!!!
I have never worked with a Vogue pattern for either knitting or sewing that has not had either a mistake in it, or some direction that makes sense only to recent immigrants from the plane Grog.
Yes, the errata obviously made the pattern more incorrect. Who does these thing?
See, this is why I have not attempted cables yet.
I have that song from Sesame Street playing in my head, "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong..."
Vogue is probably run just like a government: Someone submits a sweater that looks great, but then it goes to a committee. That committee has hundreds of sweaters to look at, so gives it a cursory glance and shuffles it off to a subcommittee. This subcommittee is run by less senior members with obviously less experience - the more experienced people have moved up to positions where they don't really do any work, they just are mouthpieces. The subcommittee members love this sweater, so they send it to their interns, who have likely only been knitting a short while, and the interns come up with the written pattern and charts.
In the time it has taken all of this shuffling to happen, the deadline for the new magazine has crept up on them, and so it flies back up to the original committee - who still loves the sweater, thinks it would be exactly what they need to finish off this next magazine, but they don't have the time to actually knit it to check for errors. It gets printed without fact checking.
Then we knitters have to do a bailout to save the rest of the knitting country from total collapse in the future.
Lesson learned? Vogue pics may be pretty but don't try to knit this at home!
WOW - I think I may just have to tune in for more answers in the next episode of SOAP!
Sure, they both match, but the "correct" cable was one you saw and wanted to knit. Frankly, I like that cable a lot, too. Pffft! on sloppy editing.
I totally get it, and see that you must have done it both ways and probably did the good knitter thing of re-writing the correction to save everyone this hassle. Yarn Harlot saves the day!
So...are you going to stick with what you have? Or are you going to try to copy the image from the magazine?
Is it just me, or does Vogue not seem to have it together lately?
I'm glad it is not just me....the last three patterns I knitted (2 sweaters and a pair of socks) all had major written errors. Since I have been knitting almost 30 years, I realized I may know more than the patterns and then something interesting happened....I found myself correcting the patterns without a fuss---my hands and brain were talking, and all I was doing was looking at the photos. A strangely surreal experience---guess I have had to correct one pattern too many. I was starting to wonder if nonknitters are writing these patterns, but then started thinking that the problem may be the test knitters---why wouldn't they speak up about the errors and have them corrected before publishing?
Is it wrong that I'm just sitting here laughing helplessly?
I blame my deadlines.
That is par for the course with Vogue patterns. I have yet to knit one that DIDN'T have an error like that.
1. Head spinning...I think I'll work on a plain sock.
2. It's like the hokey-pokey of knitting!
3. If you drank enough fine Canadian beer, the cables might look blurry enough that it won't matter!
4. Funny story, so I wandered onto your tour page and I saw "May 4, Salt Lake City" and I got all excited and almost took work off and then noticed that it was 2008...sad day.
Good God. Where is the gun? Isn't Vogue known for this crap?
Oh dear. Well done being clever and figuring this out! You should post this as a comment to the pattern page. =)
Gotta love it! The twice corrected, back to the "right" original, looks best, for sure.
What happened with the swift?
For that matter did the knitting fates ever relent on that estonain shawl you were working on a while back? Or is it relegated to the back of a closet to cool off?
All I get is that (a) Vogue patterns suck & (b) it's time to pick something else to work on.
But it looks like you're an even more clever cupcake and got it all figured out, on swatches no less. Hooray!
I have been tempted so many times to knit this sweater. I am glad you took the time to explain the asinine vogue instructions. Honestly, I am beginning to think that it's a vogue-thing. There have been too many patterns AND errata from their mag (and books) that have turned up wonky. I know their patterns are from a lot of different designers, but a little fact checking to guard the magazine's reputation would be nice. It's just sloppy. Thanks for your diligent efforts and photos!!
Who's on first? HA! Confusing!
because they're all crazy?
but it is a very pretty cable, when done right/wrong/corrected
Cables always look like vaginas to me. Sorry. I had to get that out.
You lost me towards the end,OK you lost me in the middle. And then I got distracted by the fact that you actually knit all of those swatches to show the right and the wrong and the right and the left. Wow. At that point the mental wheels were just spinning (as in wheels in mud or on ice).
The jacket looks amazing! Especially the one on Ravelry without the buttons just the clasp.
Please Don't Ban Me,
Dirty, dirty mind. Just saying.
That's why I tend to do cables "by ear", once I've got them set. And I do like to make them mirror images of each other - I actually frogged a current WIP so that I could do just that, rather than have them all match.
I've got a headache now.
I get it.
the thing is, I like the (this is confusing - ) the right right ones better than the wrong right ones, if you know what I mean? anyway - you are correct that this is a bummiful problem with knitting. I teach, have a student who wants to try socks on two needles, sounds easy...good thing I decided to give the pattern a test run, it's such a simple pattern to read but is full of mistakes. good thing I'm finding out before subjecting my new knitter to this aspect of knitting!
OK, I looked up the definition of "vogue":
"*temporary* mode, custom, or practice"....I always atributed some level of elegance with anything described as being "in vogue". I have always avoided "Vogue" anything. I enjoy doing cables (occasionally...rarely) and when I do there's a deal of tongue-sticking-out-corner-of-mouth and very painfully slow knitting - but I would NEVER have found a mistake like that and would have joined my fellow commenters in our assorted couch corners, sobbing. (It's one reason you are YOU and I am...me.)
I must thank you Stephanie because I never used to check for errata until AFTER I read your book where you warned about this. Before that, like you, I always assumed it was me. I did find changes to the last two patterns I was about to knit by checking first on-line. SO, a HUGE THANK YOU for that warning. Your books are great by the way :)
So what you're saying is the Vogue believes that two wrongs make a right?
So what you're saying is that Vogue believes two wrongs make a right?
Dear Heaven. I'm glad you figured it out. I'd just have folded. Totally.
But then, I've not managed to knit anything yet from VK, like their clothing patterns, they've always been just too intimidating...
"rams" said it best on the upline- Those of us waiting for the COWL PATTERN will not be besooted by this clever blog! We are waiting, needles in hand for THE PATTERN. Why, I even bought cashmere, which I still can't believe, in preparation for the day you give (or sell) your pattern to the world. Time is flying by and I'm not getting any younger so PLEASE, PLEASE let me knit my cashmere soon. By the way, I knit both the baby mine sweaters and they are just adorable!
I knit that! And luckily, I figured out the problem in between finishing the back and casting on for the front. It is a very messed up pattern but it produces great results, when we who know what we are doing fix the wrong that was right and is now wrong and the right that was right but made wrong to end up with the right that is wrong but really isn't.
Take a peek! I used Highlander (Alpaca with a Twist)
Thanks. I'm all dizzy now.
Vogue Knitting has a Suggestion Box link on their Corrections page (http://www.vogueknitting.com/node/99)
where you can bring this error to their attention.
I have used the Suggestion Box and found Vogue to be quite helpful.
I can imagine the pain you are having. I imagine you have corrected it (to photograph) and have sent Vogue a lovely message regarding it.
My thoughts go to my days at work when I get pointed out to me that I have made such a damn fool error and I get to sort it back until all the corrections are corrected. 8:< I am feeling compassion and pitty for the staff at Vogue. I hate how I feel when I am fixing it. (I love investigating the mystery when it is someone elses mistake! I am not THAT compassionate.)
At least you are not alone in this problem. 59 other Ravellers have knitted that cardigan, and many of them commented on the problems with the cable, and its cripple errata. Looking at the pictures, some solved it the way the original errata show (not nice, but at least symmetrical), others did it the way of your last pictures and corrected the corrections (which seems correct to me).
Good that knitters are intelligent. You are, my dear!
LOL you really can't make this stuff up! Amazing :)
So, then it appears it's true: two wrongs DO make a right!!
the comments were hysterical. I love vogue, just to look at, lovely eye candy, but I have yet to attempt to knit one of their patterns. I know better than to get on that crazytrain!
Frikkin hilarious! The question is, do they then publish an errata to the errata?
Whew! I have trouble telling my right from my left on a good day--I will so not be knitting that pattern. Must be why I'm enchanted by socks--they're knit in the round!
OMGosh....that is great!!! Love the circular logic!
Seems to me...it's time for something cold, and potent to drink! I'll have one in your honour...
This post is a metaphorical insight into the world of accounting -- just having the left (debit) match the right (credit) doesn't make it correct. ;)
Ugh. My brain just exploded.
I get it but I just gotta say, Oy Vey!!!
Akk! You just saved my sweater! I'm knitting a Vogue pattern right now and your post reminded me to check for errata - and there's an arse-load of it! (Sorry, arse-load sounds like a full diaper, doesn't it? I just wanted to use the word "arse" because you seem to like it so much. I obviously need some practice integrating it into my vocabulary.)
Errata and Unerrata MAKE ME CRAZY.
My deepest sympathies and my zippedee doodah congratulations! You got 'em. This is terrible whether it's a knitting pattern or something in person. I had the EXACT experience with an airline rep at Miami Airport. (Promise yourself you will NEVER fly in or out of Miami Airport, ever.)Every sentence started with either "I can't", "you can't" or "that's not possible". Just the memory makes me want to choke her!
What I want to know is did you knit up all those samples just to show us?
Got it. I explained it to my husband and he got it too, despite being a non-knitter.
This makes pefect sense to me. Should I be afraid?
and you just pointed out in one step why I don't do cables....
Uh...I'm dizzy. Tried to follow all that errata explanation. My head hurts... Gotta go lay down now.
I have knitted seven Vogue patterns over the past several years, and have not found errors in them. I think some of the comments have been unfair.
All pattern publishers have errors. I have knitted lots of their patterns with no problems. But, a few years ago I knit a lace sweater that had a huge problem. One of the rows of the pattern repeat did not cover all of the stitches you had. There were some left over at the end of the row. There were no errata on line, and I loved the pattern, so I spent hours and figured the problem out. I was surpised and proud that I was able to do that. I e-mailed them the problem and its fix, as they seem to ask you to do. My e-mail was never acknowledged and they never posted errata for that pattern. I suspect very few people sucessfully knit that sweater. So unusual in the knitting world that they blow off people who notify them of problems. I once posted what I suspected was an error in a Sally Melville pattern and Sally herself e-mailed me back. Gasp! I had just misunderstood the instructions that time, but she took the time to respond personally. Vogue's designs are often wonderful, but I worry whenever I undertake a complex one.
I'm very impressed that you knit all the samples for us. I hope Vogue takes notice and fixes there fix.
I have given up even looking at Vogue any more. Every pattern I tried for the last few years is error ridden. They seem to only proof the size written and the others are put through a program and never looked at again. I will not buy or even peruse another issue until I know the staff is changed or trained. Maybe they don't even knit?
Regarding Renee's comment, I'm not really sure how comments that speak from personal experience are unfair. If I've knit a Vogue pattern with four errors in it, then that's the experience I've had. If someone else has never come across an error, then that's the other person's experience.
The comments can't really provide a statistically significant sample of whether more people do or do not find errors, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have the expectation that a magazine as widely-published and well-established as Vogue should be, if not so closely-edited as to be nearly flawless, at least be prompt in discovering and reporting errors.
Steph's post alone, ignoring the comments, demonstrates what is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable for Vogue. Here is a sweater pattern that was published two years ago, that has been knit by several people, and that has had reports of errors (obviously, by the presence of the errata). To then mess up a second time, after already having attention brought to the errors, is just careless. And to let the incorrect information still be up two years later?
I believe most of us, if we were to write our own one-knitter-show patterns on our personal blog, would put forth more care and attention if there were errors in our patterns. Vogue could set a better standard, and I can't think it unfair for paying subscribers to ask for that.
Kniiter's Confessional time: I'm a naughty knitter. I have to admit that if it's not an "important" project, i.e. a gift, I will sometimes follow patterns to a point and then veer off it wildly, making it up as I go. :) I have to admit that about a good third of the time I wish I had stayed on pattern.
I just had to tell you that while working off a cable chart yesterday, I messed up ONE cable. I noticed it two rows later and was able to correct it thanks to you and an earlier post you wrote about "untwisting" cables.
Normally, I wouldn't bother writing you about this, but the timing seemed right. Thanks Steph!
P.S. For as many cables as I've been knitting recently you'd think I'd understand the engineering of them. I don't. They are still magic to me. (or a huge pain in the tush)
This is some sick way to get me to use my lifelong nemesis, Algebra, isn't it?
Sorry, my passion for cables is not that whacked.
Don't throw out the sd card. My 12 yo son tells me you can reformat them - they are very expensive.
Thank God I had two cups of tea in me before I read that or my head would have exploded.
There is a saying that you can be right or you can be happy which is something I struggle with everyday. I guess that's true for knitting too.
See, Steph, this is why I rarely do Vogue patterns. I have found myself in similar quandaries too many times, so I stick to pattern books these days. You have my deepest sympathy.
That's why I always hate charted cable patterns - I much prefer the ones that tell you stitch for stitch what you should be doing! Even then, as noted, they sometimes get it wrong - but in this instance even the errata have errata, so there's no hope if a novice knitter picks it up, and lots of swearing if an experienced knitter picks it up!
Rats! I have a hard time reading and understanding the issue but now the post is really making me interested enough to go check my VK mag for the mistakes! :P
I was knitting a beret in seed stitch (I won't name the pattern or the designer here) and got all the way to the top. The crown decreases looked a bit wonky, but I figured I'd wear it "inside out" and so they wouldn't show. I tried it on. There were points in my beret at the beginning of each decrease line. I ripped it out to below the decreases and started them again. Still wonky looking and still pointy. AAARRRRGGGGHHHH. I ripped out the WHOLE THING and wound the yarn back into a ball. I then ripped up the pattern and trashed it.
That was the pattern, not me.
I found a different pattern, started it, and the yarn is quite happy to be knit into this new beret!
I ran into that with another Vogue pattern from their men's issue years ago. Not the errata nightmare, but the cable chart not matching the picture. I discovered it AFTER the whole thing was put together so it's still "wrong".
That is pretty amazing...
YO!!---JUST FOR THE RECORD, fellow knitter notice that the publisher of this pattern used the same one photo to show the image of the both sides of this sweater. How?..by simply flipping the photo over - which is why the both sides look so very precisely knitted in perfect visual union -AKA/mirror images!!...SO -now i wonder WHAT IS the finished product SUPPOSED to look like !?!??
Life is too short to go around figuring out how other people fubared things, though I do understand the thrill of the puzzle. Still, I was zoning out the way I haven't done since 10th grade geometry halfway through the post. Anything resembling math or shapes or shapes with math does a number on my poor weak head. The brain balks.
Off to knit a nice plain length of sockfoot.
And you expect different from Vogue? I only read them because Meg writes, every now and then, for them.
Guess who posted before she read the rest of the Blog? Well.
Well, I still feel sorry for the worker bees at Vogue. I haven't met a worker bee yet who doesn't want to do a good job. I feel forwarned about some fancy sweaters I picked out to knit from a winter Vogue mag I bought a while ago.
I will stick with Fionna Ellis this summer.
I just looked at the Vogue Knitting website. Apparently there are pattern errors in EVERY issue of this magazine. I am appalled. How can they put out EVERY magazine without checking the pattern directions for accuracy? People pay them to get the patterns in the magazines, and the least they can do is to make the patterns accurate. I subscribed to Vogue Knitting in the 80's and 90's. I was considering subscribing again. This makes my decision very obvious. Vogue Knitting is just sloppy. They should make every submitted pattern themselves as written, and reject the submitted patterns if they do not come out as promised. I suppose it saves them a lot of money and effort to simply take patterns from people and publish them without checking. They get us to buy the magazines because they claim to be the ultimate in knitted fashion garments. The patterns are no good if they don't work. I am disgusted.
Ya know, That was quite an enjoyable read. I'm glad that they screwed up so much because it gave us all a good laugh. Sorry you had to go to so much trouble to get it all figured out, though. :)
This is why I just look at the picture and knit that, ignoring the directions. Because really, they screw me up every time. Of course, I also get some interesting results....
Regarding Clockworktomoto's response to my comment: Of course everyone is entitled to their individual opinion or experience. I did not refer to your original post, nor did I comment on Stephanie's. To clarify, I think that for someone to state that "all Vogue patterns suck" is uncalled for.