I'm going to have to go with A. I mean, if you knit in stockinette for yards and yards on needles that are too big, is that lace?

Definitely A. Big knitting ain't lace.

I am voting for C. With a very strong leaning toward A. Sorry, Steven.

I would have to say C. I normally think of lace as knitting patterns made of yarnovers and increases/decreases, but admit that the definition is a bit rigid. However, this contest is being done by a group and there are tons of interesting lace patterns out there that you could make if you are trying to churn out yardage.

Of course, I wish you luck. I would lose the contest of most yardage in a month (or two), because my commute time is most of my knitting time. Hard to knit when the muggles think that I can't have 2 square inches of space to move my fingers.

OK, here it goes - I think the point of the contest is to knit a whole bunch of stuff over the summer, with a LOT of very dinky tiny slinky VERY VERY thin yarn. And have fun while doing it.

So Steven - more power to you, you can knit whatever the heck pattern you want to, as long as it uses VERY thin yarn, and a lot of it. There. Enjoy. :-)

It's like running a marathon - only ONE person will win it, so might as well have fun running that very long distance.

I'm going to have to go for C. Sorry.

God love you, Steven A, and I am looking forward to meeting you at Knot Hysteria, but the answer is A. Otherwise, all of my dropped stitches = lace, and that ain't right.

Uh. A! Knitting in a loose guage isn't 'lace'. It's open, light knitting, but it's not lace. Lace has a proper pattern of holes and decreases to make patterned mesh. Knitting little yarn on huge needles is just large guage. Sorry buddy...

A. What Steven is describing is "lace-like" or "lacey" (spelling?) or "pseudo-lace", but not real lace.

C or maybe D. I think the whole thing (no pun intended) hinges on the fact that the lace holes are Stable. Big holes made with big needles in just knit or purl stitch, are too stretchy and are not stable. Stabilize the hole, and you have lace.
Steven, go ahead and knit the sweater, but it won't be lace. Enjoy it anyway, if that's what you want to knit. Why would you want to force yourself to knit a bunch of socks or lace just for a contest if you won't enjoy the process? Or the product? Life's too short!!

i choose A. i don't think knitting "big" equals knitting lace.

A - Estonian and Shetland lace for instance are knitted with very very fine wool and large needles. It's the holes though that are considered the lace, not the plain stitches.

A.

A for me. Lace has deliberately positioned patterns in it. Not holey fabric. Not I can see through this fabric even though it doesn't have pretty patterns in it. Not what results when the cat gets hold of your socks in progress.

A. It's a nice sweater, but I wouldn't call it lace.

Voting for A.

I have to go with A. I think the sweater pictured at Ravelry might be called lacey if you aren't looking at the pattern and of course to a muggle. But I think for something to be called lace, it also implies some difficulty. holes and changing stitch counts on each row and really really long charts and confusing instructions etc.
Does the definition of lace never include the weight of the yarn used? I would guess, especially for a contest, that it would also have to be using lace or fingering weight yarn.
Sorry. sorta. ;)

A ... also... for all of the reasons already mentioned.

I vote B. That sweater looks like lace to me, no matter how it's knit.

I'm going to vote for C, but I have to say that I really love this sweater. And it is arguably a lace-and-cables sweater... from what I can tell from the smallish picture on Ravelry.

C.

What if I deliberatley use big needles to create holes, isn't that lace? there's more than one way to create a hole where you want a hole.

That said, rules are rules. Steve can have his own target and do whatever her wants, but if he wants to compete, go with what the shop says.

Deb.

Dude, they're allowing crocheters to enter. You're gonna lose anyway, no knitter can beat crochet when it comes to yardage.

A.
I'm flexible with people and their ideas/opinions. I'd let Steven join; however, I'm rigid with my definitions. A definition is a definition. He would need to KNOW he was breaking the rules. And that'd be fine with me. Just so HE KNOWS.

I'm going to have to go with A. Sorry, Steven.

I've got to go with C. And, anyways, it's the shop's competition. They can make up whatever rules they want...they're the people giving away free money.

A. I think a deliberate drop stitch pattern in a thin yarn on large needles can be lacey too. But it is all in the words 'deliberate pattern'.

Oh- and also, to be real lace, there must be tears, angst, frustration, swearing, doing over and over and complete satisfaction when it's all done.
Deb.

I'm going with "A," though with some persuasion, perhaps "C." (But the Veronik Avery Sweater doesn't count anyway.)

I'm C, leaning towards A as well. Sorry, Steven!

Sorry Steven. That ain't lace bud, looks like it but by my definition, lace requires concentration and markers.

A

A. Knitted lace.

c

I'm going to have to go with A--that it's not lace. Chiffon is also translucent but we wouldn't call that lace. However, I think the yarn store is being too rigid. It's summer and isn't this supposed to be fun? Maybe they should have a category called Flace (for fake lace)so everyone can play.

I'm going to have to say A, with some possibility of C -- after all, some Estonian motifs involve the deliberate creation of patterns involving yarn-overs, but they don't result in holes. (I'm thinking, for example, of the first section of Laminaria from Knitty. Maybe that kind of pattern isn't technically 'lace'?)

As far as a summer-weight knitting contest, though, obviously any store can make up its own rules, but it seems like a more even-handed category of summer-appropriate knitting would be something like: "X weight or lighter yarn, at Y sts per inch or less".

I lean toward A, but vote C in an effort to be less rigid.

I also think that knit and crochet shouldn't be competing against one another for yardage. No knitter is going to win that prize.

I'm in the A camp, too. It seems the issue is really whether to think of lace as a noun (the finished product) or a verb (a certain type of knitting). For this knitter it's all about the process.

I vote C with apologies.

A. Not even close to lace, dude. If you want cables AND lace, why not try Norah Gaughan's Ribbed Lace Pullover from Gathering of Lace? http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/ribbed-lace-pullover

IMHO, just because something's lacey doesn't make it lace. I'm going to go with A.

yeah, dude... sorry but i shall have to go with "C" too... cuz big needle knits do not equal lace. they just equal needing to wear an undershirt.

I'm on the spot with "C" - although I really wish I could give it up for "B." I can't just can't make it there, so "C" it is... (And that contest sent shivers down my back, and not in a good way. My knitting destiny is in cables since lace abhors me. I've have enough failures and enough hooch to accept this about myself, but it doesn't make me love lace items any less.)

I know the pain of wanting to make a point and feeling that no one is behind you.

But honesty is honesty.

And honestly, I'm going to have to say C. Pretty cabled pattern and close, so close... but no cigar!!!

A, most definitely. Unless you're making holes through deliberate action, you're just making something with a loose gauge (or with a lot of mistakes). Sorry, Steve.

D. I want to say that EZ is not know for being rigid. But think of all the new ideas and techniques we are wading into. I am all for finding out new ways of making lace (Cat Bordhi are you listening?). Unfortunately I wouldn't change the rules of a contest at this for Steven, but I would change them for next time.
Maybe we need a contest to come up with new ways to make lace.

C

Sorry Steven! I vote C.

I'm going with C. Sorry Stephen!

While I would call that sweater "sheer" I would not call it lace. Lace creates a pattern. I don't call fishnets lace stockings, even though they've got holes in them, so I can't call that lace. Nothing against that sweater OR fishnets, because I really like both of them. I just wouldn't define them as lace.

A. Big knitting can be lacy, but that's lace-*y* like carob is chocolatey. "Ish" does not equal "is."

Sorry, I vote A. "Lace" is not the same thing as "lacy." Just using large needles might be open and lacy, but not actually lace. Grape juice is similar to wine - you smoosh grapes to get a liquid you can drink, but unless you let it ferment it's not wine. There's an extra step to creating lace (and wine) that's not there with the large needles (and grape juice). Just don't spill your drink of choice on your knitting of choice.

A

I'm going to have to pick A.

Loose gauge isn't the same as deliberately placed holes.

Also, I heard once that "true" lace has yarnovers and decreases on both sides of the knitting. How demoralizing is THAT?

Gotta go with C- with A running a close second. I can make basic stockinette socks lace by stretching them over my big feet, if we take Steven's definition.

A...

A. Sorry dude. I have always wanted to be a good lace knitter. I can make holes - that does not make me lace knitter. :(

I vote A. That sweater might have lacy elements to it, but it is not lace.

My definitions are:

Lacy: Something that resembles lace. Something that has holes and is light and airy.
Lace: The deliberate creation of a hole for decorative effect. (This excludes buttonholes, since that is a hole for PRACTICAL effect.)

C.
It has /cables/. If it didn't I'd be tempted to agree. :)
Good luck Steven!

A.

I have to go with A. And yes, dude, that is a cabled sweater, not lace! Darcy is right though - crochet will always win for yardage!

I have to go with C. Sorry, Steven.

I have to go with A.

d.
I mostly kinda disagree with his definition of lace. I think that definition is for beginners and he obviously is not a beginner if he wants to knit that sweater.
BUT I think the yarn shop should loosen up! Knitting is knitting. Give him a break. Cables suck up just as much yardage as yarn overs!

C

C. Big needles make lacy, gauzy fabric, but that's not the knitting of lace, its the knitting of translucent, floppy fabric. Besides, that sweater is specifically cabled, even if it is also lacy. Knit something else, Steve.

This will be an interesting debate.

I vote A, with a C chaser, and definitely "tears, angst, frustration, swearing" plus a lifelife if you know what's good for you. Must be able to count and keep track!

A, no doubt by me on that one.

I say d. Thanks goodness I have finally found a subject I have no opinion on. :)

I say d. Thanks goodness I have finally found a subject I have no opinion on. :)

I'm voting for A. I want to say C but I have that pattern book, and I've read that pattern, and that pattern isn't lace. Now the Juneberry triangle in the same book, THAT is lace!

Definitely C.

I'm on the fence between A and C (which is not a vote for B!). I'm going to go with C because I'm feeling generous, but I'm really just taking my eyes off A for just a moment. Sorry, dude.

A, absolutely.

Definitely C. Most definitely.

A definitely. The point of lace is the challenge! Just using big needles is definitely cheating, though I guess you could call it "lacy" because of the wholes. I still stick by my answer -- A!!

Sorry but my answer is A. I enjoy knitting lace but just because something is lacy doesn't make it lace. The holes are part of the pattern not because you use a larger needle.

If I had a megaphone here, I would shout "A" to the Austrian alps and back. Sorry, bud... NOT lace. Not even close. No way, no how.

Sorry Steven...C. I'm in the "that's lacy, but not lace" camp. But wow, it's a pretty sweater.

I'm going to go with C leaning strongly towards A.

I have a firm opinion, but not one that demands agreement from others.
I have to choose A (sorry Stephen, honest).
Knitting on big needles is just a difference in gauge, not a different technique, and definitions of 'lace' vs. 'not-lace' hinge on technique, rather than whether something can be worn without a bra (or jock strap) or not.

A with the part of C about there being other ways to make lace than yarn overs. Big loose stitches are not lace.

I keep looking at the Whisper Cables Pullover and as much as I WANT to say that it's lace, it's not. It's floaty. It's sheer. It's beautiful (and I might knit it for my sister for Christmas). But it's not lace.

That being said, I could be convinced that there's more than one way to make knitted lace beyond yarn overs. (There's an article title for you - Lace Beyond Yarn Overs.) That sweater still isn't lace.

So, I vote C.

Then again, rules are rules and if the shop decides that lace is ONLY yarn overs with appropriate decreases, then that's what you've got to go with. How about this one? http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/lacy-cabled-scoop (yes, it's another rav link... sorry...)

Sorry Steven, but lace is YO and K2tog or some such combination. Loose knitting with big needles don't cut it. Gotta go with A.

I would have to say c. It is a very pretty but I wouldn't call it lace.

A and a little bit of C. There is no way that sweater is lace. And cables eat yarn for breakfast, unlike lace, cheater cheater pumpkin-eater! Though, as said above, the crocheters are going to own this contest.

I'm with Diane @ 4:14PM. It's lacy but that's not the point. Lace needs no other reason to exist other than for itself. So my vote is A

Sorry, I have to vote A as well.

I have to go with A.

A. Knitting garter stitch with big needles is not the same as doing increases and decreases to create a pattern.

I go with C---it's a light sweater, but not lacey...

I really do think it's A. But in the interest of being more open-minded, I could be a C. Sadly, neither is the answer that Steven is probably looking for. Sorry dude.

C, with a leaning towards A! That's definitely a cable top...

...and I burst out laughing when I saw Darcy's comment about crocheters.

Yep, relax and knit whatever you want this summer (the jumper you've chosen is lovely) - as you've got very little hope of winning a yardage war with crocheters in the mix!

Sorry, dude. A. Big-needle knitting is not the same as lace.

Sorry Steven ... A.

Sorry, Steven, but I say C.

A. Sorry.

A. Definitely A.

C.

C -- there are various techniques for making lace... but that sweater isn't really one of them. Sorry!

Also, my vote for best quote thus far:

"Oh- and also, to be real lace, there must be tears, angst, frustration, swearing, doing over and over and complete satisfaction when it's all done. --Deb"

A, dude. A.

Another vote for "A" here.

I think C, sorry Steve!

I'm not usually a traditionalist, and I would never go up directly against Debbie New, but...I have to vote C. I believe in A, having just spun and knitted a lace shawl for my wedding, and anything that isn't that much trouble isn't lace IMNSHO. Sorry, fella.

A all the way

I have to vote A simply for the "deliberately created" and "on purpose" parts of the statement.

A - just because you knit the stitches bigger doesn't mean that it is lace. Lace - IMHO - implies that the stitches have been manipulated by means of YO, PSSO, K2TOG, etc to create the lacy texture. Nice try, but not lace.

I vote B - it looks like lace to me!

A. No doubt. Cables can be lace, too, but the lace has to be of the "intentionally created, stable hole" variety.

a. sorry dude.

A. That lace holes are stable is the key point that supports my choice. Hope you're enjoying that beer, Steven, and please don't take any of this personally. You have lovely taste in sweaters.

Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

Vote for A. I have had holes in my knitting and believe me it was NOT lace.

C from C(ynthia)

A for me as well.
Sorry Steven, it's a nice pattern, but it is not lace.

A, with a slight possiblity of C- you might be able to convince me that something else qualifies as lace, but not that sweater. (And not really the scribble "lace" either.)

That's a beaut, but it's definitely an A from me too. What if he added a lace panel down each sleeve (such as the lace Branching Out pattern from knitty)? [http://knitty.com/ISSUEspring05/PATTbranchingout.html]

That would add lace to the garment without changing it too much, although, as someone else said, lace ain't technically lace unless it's knit on both sides.

Hmmm...this makes me wonder. I have been considering my Clapotis part of my summer of lace. The holes are made with dropped stitches rather than yo's and the stabilization is done with twisted stitches on either side. Would the holes in that project be considered lace?

As far as Steve goes, Dude, I have to pick "C".

I am choosing A. Even though there are other forms of lace(of which I know a bit). I love lace, I make lace, all sorts of lace, bobbin lace, tatted lace, knitted lace (including lace knitting), needle laces. All are formed creating wholes by design to create an open and stable work. None of it is due to a loose guage or gauzelike appearances. So much energy for something that should be fun and enjoyable-even relaxing. Suck it up and move on. I am sure there will be other contets to make that lovely sweater.

I'm torn between A and C here. I'd go with A, except for the fact that I actually do believe that waterfall effects/deliberately dropped stitches (like in the Clap) is a type of lace. But again, those are deliberately created, so doesn't that fall into A, even if it isn't a yo?

HOWEVER, in defense of Steven, when I checked the pattern out, I distinctly saw A's definition of lace in that sweater, so...

A all the way.
It seems to me, in my quick scan of previous votes, that Steven might want to pick another pattern

lol I hope Steven has that beer. And I gotta go with C, too.

C. Let's invent a new term, suggest: Faux Lace
That way, Lace is Lace and we have Faux Lace too.

C

C, but with strong leanings toward A. That sweater is not lace, sorry! And Stephanie, I can't wait to see your finished sweater!

I'm going to have to pick A.

Loose gauge isn't the same as deliberately placed holes.

Also, I heard once that "true" lace has yarnovers and decreases on both sides of the knitting. How demoralizing is THAT?

A. Definitely.

Sorry, Steven. I vote A.

Big knitting is not lace. Ultimately the rules are set by the contest moderators and whatever they said goes. You've got to play by the rules as set out and if they say no, it's no. No arguing will fix that. If you want to do something else, don't join that contest - or run your own with your own rules.

As a secondary note, sometimes those type of contests/rules are made to equal the playing field. You can't get the speed up as easily on "real" lace with yo's and decreases that you can on garter or stockinette on big needles.

I want to say A, but out of sympathy I am willing to say C.

D - just because rigid definitions were ignored by the late great EZ and rigid definitions prevent intelligent mistakes from becoming something awe-inspiring and because there always should be a something different - in life, in knitting (when those two are not one and the same) and in art.

GO Steven GO D and for goodness sake - lace is not boring - but fabric created to be less than staid and solid!

Sorry Steven big needles and stockingette does not mean lace.

I am a A inline with the competition rules. But if we had another competition where we were to develop lace with alternative stitches - ie a stable fabric construction then I would be a C.

personally, I think B. but if I were to enter a contest, I'd want to make sure my entry qualified. maybe I would think they should change the rules...but their contest, their rules. *shrug*

I'm going to have to pick A.

Loose gauge isn't the same as deliberately placed holes.

Also, I heard once that "true" lace has yarnovers and decreases on both sides of the knitting. How demoralizing is THAT?

B

Definitely A. Knitting at a loose gauge creates an open fabric, not lace.

I'm on the fence between A and C. I think A is correct, but I want to say C because I don't like things to be so defined. "Scribble lace", for example, is not just called "lace" for a reason - it isn't lace, but it has the false appearance of it.

I just knit a hole-y market bag, and it is far from lacy. And I'm certain that what moths leave behind is not lace. So I'm going C, with a side-order of A.

Why don't you start a hole...errr, whole other contest, Steven?

A.

Make the lovely cabled sweater after the contest.

Sorry Steven, but my vote is for A.

Sorry, Stephen, but it has to be A. The holes have to be stable and holey.

C. I don't know exactly that I care how lace achieves its lacy-ness, nor that I agree it must be had by virtue of y/o's and decreases, but that's a cable sweater, so suck it up!!

Tatting, pin lace, counted thread lace - they're not knitting, but they're lace, so I guess lace is lace is lace .. but cable ain't lace.

I vote B.

And not just because Steven is cute.

I've voting C.

A or maybe C. It's really all about deliberate, stable holes. I would count Clapotis as lace even though there are no yarn overs because the columns of dropped stitches are stable. As much as I think that's a gorgeous sweater and could concede that it's lacy, I don't think it's lace. Sorry Stephen.

C.

At first I was thinking A...but then I got to thinking about the difference maybe between "lace" and "lacy." Like I don't think of Clapotis as lace...but it's very open. So, really, all this to say I don't think there is one clean cut definition...but this sweater wouldn't meet it. Sorry.

A...gotta be A. I'm firmly in the camp of the late, great EZ. Sorry Steve. Enjoy that beer!

I'm going C, but almost A. The point of a lace challenge to me would be that it be a little challenging with the YO and decreases. Big needles just doesn't do it.

Suck it up, buttercup, A. I will add a side of D, too. In a contest, there must be rules/regulations/standards, and we can either agree to the terms and participate, or not join. I have grown rather weary of the debate society popping up and tangling the skeins.

A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

C. Pattern seems like more like a light cable sweater than a lace one. But what do I know? lol If it was called "Whisper Lace Pullover" I might agree with you.

C. That sweater is all about the cables.

I vote A. To me lace is a technique, as well as an effect, and using big needles are not the same technique.

A. Dawn said it perfectly: "A. What Steven is describing is "lace-like" or "lacey" (spelling?) or "pseudo-lace", but not real lace.
Posted by: Dawn at May 27, 2010 3:57 PM

C. It's lacy fabric, but that's not lace. Lovely pattern though - I'm adding it to my queue!

I vote A. I appreciate the force of your argument, Steven, but lace is lace because of the holes you put there on purpose. Sorry!

For the purposes of definitions, who cares?

For the competition though, it's absolutely a. Deb hit the nail on the head. To level the playing field, patterns should all hold the same probability of causing tears, swearing, etc.

I am going with C.

Firstly - I want to remind Stephen that if he wants to enter a contest and he did not make up the rules, then he must go with the existing rules or not enter.

Secondly - I can see lace being made by dropped stitches so I would say that yo's are not the only way to go.

Third - Loose stitches are just that to me - open and airy but not lace. I am currently knitting the Aran Necklace Cami from the 2010 spring Interweave Knits issue. This pattern calls for size 7 needles with fingering yarn creating a very open fabric. In no way would I call it lace.

Nice food for thought discussion though.

A...while it's lovely, loose cables ≠ lace.

C (sorry Steven)

C with a strong leaning towards A. Sorry Steve... it's a nice sweater, why not just pick an equally nice lace sweater for the contest and make the non-lace one for something else? Like pleasure?

A. In fact I wouldn't classify the scribble lace scarf as lace....that's lacey.

How's that beer, Steven?
A with a little leaning towards C. It just ain't lace.

Put me in the A camp. When Steven finishes a real lace shawl, let's see what he thinks of his theory then!! Sorry, buddy. A

Definitely A. Sorry Steven, but a loose gauge does not make lace.

Definitely A but I see your point with C.

A.

Now about that baby bonnet? The one with the LACE edging?

Aaaaah... gotta go with C here; and if you took C away, I'd be in the A camp. Sorry, Steven!

There is a difference between "lace" and "lace-like." We all know this. So A. There are definitely more ways to make holes in fabric, but those aren't lace. If I purposefully cut holes into my sweater, it doesn't make it a lacy sweater. It's just a sweater with holes in it.

Yep, 'fraid you had me at A.

I've got to say A. Lace is YO's and decreases - that make a decorative pattern. Lace has motifs. Big stockinette is not a motif. :)

I vote for C. I've knit a couple of scribble lace shawls, I consider them "lacey". Its not like I'd go around wearing them without something underneath!

A

Voting C before I look at all the other votes.

But, even more excited when I saw your description that I was pretty sure it was the yarn store just a mile or so away. The owner, many years ago in a previous store, helped me finish up my first ever sock. Several years ago I even finished the other one. ;-D

Sorry, dude, but A it is. Just because you use knitting needles that look like props on Buffy does not make the pattern lace - it's still a cable pattern.

Also, EZ is watching ;P

Looks like lace to me! B!

A. Fer sure.

Also, pick your battles. Fighting the rules of a contest isn't the best use of time, IMHO.

A, sorry! Linen isn't lace, or even lacy, and that can be see-through... :)

I'm sorry, Steven. But A it is.

I have to go with C. Sorry Steven.

C with strong A urges. I believe you can used cables in lace and that lace can be made in various ways, some of which may not covered by EZ's definition. However, that sweater is not lace, it's a beautiful lightweight sweater that uses cables and stockinette. Sorry Steven and good luck in the contest.

Sorry Dude, I have to go with A for the purposes of the contest. They have to come up with a uniform definition and guidelines or even something as simple as the dishcloth my 6 year old stepgranddaughter is making could count (big needles, bright WW cotton yarn.... she's 6 and it keeps her occupied, we're all good) in the contest.

A. Lace is a beautiful synchronization between that which gives and that which takes away.

A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

I am apparently, and much to my own surprise, a lace purist, so I'm going to have to go with A. The stablity of the holes is where I get hung up I think. Skinny yarn + big needles can be lacy, but I wouldn't call it lace.

I'm going to have to go with C. I was on the fence until I looked at the picture of the sweater...there isn't anything "lacy" about it!

I go with C. Although if you are judging lace on a purely traditional front, A. But I like the idea of C better. :)

My vote: There has to be more than one way to knit lace.
The sweater in question though is not lace but clearly a cable sweater.
How's that for riding the question fence? I'm good at that.

A. That sweater is pretty, but it's not lace knitting. In my opinion, Clapotis is pretty, but isn't lace knitting, either.

I love both knitting and crochet, but I agree that they should be competing in separate categories. Crochet not only uses more yarn than knitting, but in general it works up much faster.

A with a dash of C.

I'm dithering between A and C - and I think it's going to have to be A. You can knit things that are 'lacey' or 'lacelike' but that doesn't make them lace. And that sweater is so not lace, by any definition!

I'm mostly in the "A" category. I kind of agree with C but A's where it's at for lace. Lace has purposefully placed holes for decorative purposes. Knitting cables, bobbles, popcorn stitch, stockinette, garter, with needles larger than your yarn calls for, doesnt count as lace.

C Sorry, Steven

A - and I won't say I'm sorry.

A for me, while I like the sweater, it's more of a cable pattern and definitely not lace. Sorry Steven - I bet Steph would like a nice ale to go with all the heat! :)

C ('cause SSK K2T also make holes) if not C then A

Sorry Steven :-(

I also have to go with A. It may be *lacey* but it's not Lace, IMO. Still pretty though!

Sorry Stephen, I am going with A as well. Large needles creates a 'lace-like' effect but not lace per se.

A.

I vote for C. And now I'll go read what everyone else said.

I'll go with "A".

Similar to a previous comment above: There is a difference in "lace" and "lacey". Something knit in fine yarn on big needles would be "lacey", but without the deliberatly created, stable holes of lace knitting I do not believe it qualifies as "lace".

A.
I'm sorry Stephen, but I have to vote for A.

Sorry...A. If it makes you feel better I once got a pretty similar question wrong on a test at school. I put "Scribble Lace" as my answer. My professor said this was unacceptable, regardless of all proof shown. By textile industry standards knit fabric that is knit with an exceptionally loose gauge is a "Sleazy Knit." Makes you feel dirty and want to knit the sweater even more doesn't it? Ahh....F 'um. You don't need their stupid rules/definitions/contests. Kinda like college.

I've never ventured into lace -- way too new at knitting to even think about it yet -- but I'm pretty sure I can use big needles to make holes. So, I would probably say big needles don't really make lace.

But I think the question, for contest purposes, might be more about technique and speed. Would there be a significant speed/quantity advantage to someone using the big-needle technique instead of the yarn-over technique? If so, I can definitely see saying "no," because it would be akin to entering Twinkies in a gourmet foods contest. (The analogy's probably not quite right, but it's all about effort.)

I'm with A generally as well... although I could be convinced by a strong C example.

When I was little I was lead to believe that Carob and Chocolate were the same thing (and that trail mix was candy if it had carob chips). But I eventually realized it was all a BIG FAT LIE. Calling something that's a loose gauge "lace" is like calling carob chocolate (or for that matter, calling trail mix candy).

A, most definitely. I agree with Kelley (smallwhitedog) who said cables eat yarn for breakfast. The sweater he wants to make is sheer and beautiful, but not lace. If one wants cables in one's lace, pick one of those gorgeous, intricate Japanese patterns in the 250 book. They have real YOs and decreases with cables mixed in.

OK, it's got to be Option D for me. 8^) See, there's more to it than has yet been explored! (Somehow you knew that, didn't you?)

The yarn shop write-up says some things with potentially sinister (and undoubtedly unintentional) implications that kind of slipped under my radar at first ... "Who can knit ... the most ... lace?" and "What is lace? We’re using the Elizabeth Zimmermann definition: lace is a series of yarn-overs with accompanying decreases used to make holes." It's just not enough information, people!

Once upon a time (Margaret Stove, anyone?), there was a distinction between "knitting lace" (as in the first question above quoted) and "lace knitting" (word order matters!). You were said to be "knitting lace" if patterning occurred on each and every row of your work, which resulted in the most airy product while requiring the ability to work a decrease that caught up a yarn-over loop from the previous row, but you were doing "lace knitting" if patterning was only every other row, with a wrong-side purl or knit row in between. (As an aside, I have no earthly idea what it was called if your work combined the two types of patterning, like most of my own stoles and scarves.)

So ... I am picturing all those hoodwinked "lace knitters" going into that shop at summer's end, satisfied that they've met the Zimmerman definition (and having avoided cables, sorry), unaware of the true meaning of "knitting lace" and ...

B. I'm with Steven, we should loosen up! Holes is holes!

Sorry Dude, but I am casting a vote for A. I agree with the previous commenter **Bonnie H.** I tend to feel a too loose gauge looks sloppy and it is too much of a stretch to call it lace.

Sorry my knitting friend, but A it is. Lace isn't lace if it doesn't include all the angst mentioned above, not to mention the tinking back of umpteen hundred stitches because a lifeline wasn't put in at appropriate intervals (ask me how I know...)

C.

Zimmermann cannot be wrong. A.

Wow, everybody IS against you Stephen! LOL.

But not I. I say "B" because I think lace is like obscenity: I can't define it but I know it when I see it. And I don't feel I need a more rigid definition of lace in my life.

Also I think the contest rules are ambiguous because they accept crocheted lace which is NOT a series of yarn-overs. But it's their game and if they won't bend, I suggest you knit a stockinette poncho that has a series of yarn-over increases down the center.

Because that's lace, right? ;)

As a member of a lace guild, the members are constantly trying to explain what lace is and what qualifies as lace to the general public. We have arrived at option A as the most valid option. While there may be some "lace appearing" fabric, it is not lace unless the holes are created deliberately and with stabilization, e. g. tatting, bobbin lace, romanian point lace, drawn thread, crochet lace, etc.

A.

I have to go with A, with a possible side vote on C -- but I think lace is a deliberate and planned action and that implies YO and decreases.

Now, this does beg a BIGGER question in my mind -- is the famed Clapotis from Kate Gilbert lace? I can argue that is is pretty much without YO and decreases, BUT I can also argue that those holes were a deliberate and planned action.

Why do I stress "planned"? Because breaking the 'rules' (and I use the word rules LOOSELY -- pun intended) on gauge isn't often planned as serendipity that then gets repeated by others.

I have to go with "A".
I looked at the pattern and it seems to me that even if you thought the presence of holes qualifies it as lace, these are some mighty tiny holes!!! I wouldn't classify that as a lace sweater, maybe a "slightly see-through" sweater.

I wanted to pick A, but kindness over took me, so C it is. I have knit enough lace to know, loose knitting that generates holes is not lace.

Voting for A. See through does not mean lace. And it is a cable sweater.

A. Sorry Steven.

For the purposes of this contest, sadly, my answer is A, since those are the rules they've declared.

That said, I'm not sure I consider those rules entirely fair. They are allowing crocheted lace, which obviously doesn't involve yarnovers, since it's an entirely different beast. So if they want to be strict with their definition of lace as involving yarnovers and decreases, then crochet shouldn't count.

Generally speaking, though, I personally would call it lace if it has decorative holes made on purpose. Does knitting at a loose gauge count? Mm... Tough call. Intent plays into it, I think. Accidental floppyness certainly doesn't count. But if you're knitting at a loose gauge with the intent of getting a very airy, holey piece, then maybe.

I think, ultimately, I'm leaning toward Stephen's side of things, but not for the purposes of this contest, I'm afraid.

Sorry that was long.

I vote for A, although I could be pursuaded to switch to C if someone came up with a good example. Sorry Stephen, just using big needles doesn't make it lace (and IMHO neither does deliberately dropping stitches or making a shawl that only has yo's down the center spine).

Got to go with A.

Well, I was completely with you until I checked out the Ravelry link of what Stephen wants to make. My first impression was "OOOh....pretty lace sweater!" Since I am that kind of person I would come down on Stephen's side on this one. If your first impression is Lace Sweater than it is a lace sweater whether or not there are YOs.

I vote for A. I'm sure you'll be great at a lace pattern, Steven! Just pick something new, and embrace the lace. :D

A.

i'm going with c. close but no cigar.

I agree with many who have already said this, but just because something is lacey doesn't make it lace. So I vote for "A".

I would have to say C. With a really strong leaning towards A. I was thinking about those "Magic Scarves" that you can knit - you knit a scarf about 1/3 of the length you want it, and when you bind off, you drop every other stitch and then pull each end of the scarf - and it magically grows by about 2/3. It's another way of making holes, but most definitely not by yarn overs... Although I do agree with KathyRo, who noted that they are accepting crocheted lace, which is not made by yarn overs... maybe the contest rules, as well as the definition of lace, need to be made more definitive.

stuck between A and C... it's possible for lace to be created without yarnovers, but i can list the examples of that on one hand. and none of them include a cabled sweater.

c, with a leaning towards a. I would describe that sweater as finely knit, not lace.

I am vacillating between A and C. Actually, I'm in a good mood - so let's say C. However I do also lean towards A.

Sorry Stephen. Crack another beer.

A from me too!

A

A

I also vote for A. Its a lovely sweater, but its not lace. Does it help to think of the difference between knitted lace (pattern, i.e. yos every row) and lace knitting (alternate plain and pattern rows). That would seem to imply that one is required to do something more than just knit on large needles.

I have to pick C. The sweater Steven wants to do certainly looks like lace and cables and is very pretty. But rules are rules and that breaks the rules. It's like when a contest says, "Enter with your name and addy on a postcard" and you send it in on a regular piece of paper. A regular piece of paper is not a postcard so your entry is discarded because you did not follow the rules.

I vote C. Sorry, Steven. life's tough, get a helmet (oh, and pick a different pattern).

Sorry dude but I've got to go with
A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

A. If you don't like the rules, don't play.

As an avid lace knitter I must go with A. Lace is as much about the technique as it is the end result. Sorry dude, try again.

A. If you don't like the rules, don't play.

C but only to be kind spirited really it has to be A.
For my second project as a knitter I wanted to "do lace". The kind woman in the LYS gave me small yarn and big needles. I made a pretty scarf that satisfied me at the time - but even then - I knew it was not lace.
Sorry Steven.

D - - - Lace is Crocheted!!!

C -- cute sweater but it's not lace.

A. Knitting something with big needles to make big holes is just knitting big holes. Lace is created with certain types of stitches, and it doesn't matter what size needle you are using, it will still be lace.

A.....definitely.... A

As someone who crocheted long before I learned to knit, I'm going with A - stable holes made on purpose. Big needle knitting won't cut it, Stephen.

C with a dollop of D. There is ALWAYS more than 1 way to skin a cat. I think that YO and decreases aren't the only way to make deliberate stable holes.

Sorry Stephen, I have to go with C. The look of the sweater makes it tempting to decide otherwise, and I'm sure it will be a striking knit, but I have to concur with others that really, it's a cabled sweater that happens to have 'lacy' bits. Of course if you modified the pattern somehow to include lace......

A.

Gotta say C. Sorry, Steve. Hope the beer helps.

I have to go with A. Why? Because I'm partial to the Wiki definition you point out, Stephanie: "Lace knitting is a style of knitting characterized by stable 'holes' in the fabric arranged with consideration of aesthetic value." Stability matters, yes, but I think the "consideration of aesthetic value" is key. When we picture lace, I think most of us see a fabric that is designed in such a way as to show off a clearly "arranged" pattern, not just stockinette or garter knitted on needles large enough to spread the stitches out and make it see-through. I don't see anything wrong with defining lace somewhat strictly; it's a centuries-old fabric of which people have specific expectations, and to me that expectation is aesthetic arrangement of holes, not simply "openness."

AAAAA

B.
Crocheted lace, tatting, and that lace made on pillows by knotting dozens of strings have no yarn overs - but they are still lace.

Steven, I'm going with whatever answer gets me that skein of cashmere. (Otherwise I'd have to go with C leaning towards A) But I really, really want that yarn, so if you like I will write a Treatise on Lace Options if needed and send it to your Store Ruler. Yup, I'm on your side.

A, A all the way. Calling loose knitting lace is preposterous. Knit loosely if you want to, but please find another name for it; "lace" is already taken.

B. Based on the fact that I opened the picture, looked at the sweater and though, "yup, that's lace." Not unlike the US Supreme Court's definition of pornography. :)

Dude, I'm going to have to go with A... All in all though, I think the stability of the holes is very important, regardless of decreases.

A
Even fits in with the Debbie New scribble lace, since the scribble part is stablized by the non-scribble parts. And the deliberate pattern is that the scribble part is deliberately placed and its pattern is random on purpose.

A, because I'm knitting a REAL lace scarf that I might finish in the next 12 months. 50 stitches, 10 row pattern, absolutely nothing that can be memorized, lace weight yarn on US#5 needles. THAT'S LACE! I don't know how the holes are made in that sweater, but it AIN'T lace, it's a cabled sweater.

Tossup between C and A. Either way, no. It may qualify as "lacy," it is indeed finely knit and a lovely pattern, and maybe what a muggle would think of as lace...but in my mind while that sweater may well be translucent in part due to the gauge-induced holes, it's not knitted lace.

B - there are more important things in life to worry about than "is it lace or isn't it?"

D. Modify the pattern so it's lace with cables :-) (between each cable column, I'm seeing a centred double decrease flanked by yarn overs, executed every other or maybe every third row...)

Pretty sweater, thanks for publisising it :-)

Sorry dude. I have to go with A

A. If you drop a stitch or start knitting the wrong direction, do the holes become lace? I will have to revisit some of my old tragedies with a new eye.

I go with C. I think the sweater is sheer but not lace.

Sorry Dude, A. There is technically a difference between lace knitting and knitted lace. Although I think open mesh stitches may qualify as lacy or lace like it doesn't make it lace.
Use YO for your increases and you'll be good to go.

I hate to say it, but I have to vote A.

I'm sorry but it really has to be A.

I vote for A; it's the intricacy of the stitch pattern (relative to simple stockinette) that makes lace LACE.

I just can't endorse stockinette knit on large needles as comparable in difficulty to a yarnover/decrease lace pattern.

Sorry, Steven. Especially since the coordinator of this knitalong-thing is counting finished yardage to determine a winner, it would be unfair to allow a knitter to simply knit stockinette on big ol' needles and call it "lace."

It might look lace-ish, but it ain't quite lace.

I'm with C but also admiring of the tenacity to argue the point.

A. For sure. Although, I do like to scribble on occasion, it is not lace. "Lace" and "Lacey" are not the same thing.

C'mon - if the pattern isn't considered a lace pattern, then it's just not lace knitting (or knitted lace - not the same thing). At a local fair around here someone submitted a BEAUTIFUL tea cosy that was knitted quite plainly, felted, and then needled felted over the top in a beautiful scene (a field with sheep, apple trees, and even a sheepheardess) but it was submitted into the knitting category. Sorry, it was NOT knitting that made it beauftiful, and I think we can all agree it's not LACE that makes this pattern LACEY. EH ALL THE WAY. Or A :)

A.

a. with a bit of c.

A. If you really want to knit that sweater, Steven, go for it, but it's not lace and won't ever be.

Gotta be A - sorry Steven. Goodmorning Steph from OZ

I go with A & C

Lace involves deliberately placed holes. However, I do think you can make holes with something other than yarn-overs (heck, look at crochet or hairpin lace.

I can make a loose gauge swatch by using bigger needles & simple stockinette, but that's not lace.

I'm sorry, Steven, but ... A

Poor Stephen. A.

I gotta go with C... sorry :(

I'm kinda torn between A and C. I think the definition of lace could stand to be a bit loser, but I just don't think the sweater Steve wants to make is lace. It is a lace-like fabric but I feel like there is a pretty big difference in skill and technique between using large needles to make an airy fabric and being basically a knitting ninja to create the complex combination of stitches that make up lace.

A for me.

I think A, but there are other ways of deliberately creating holes than yarnovers. By the competition definition, Clapotis wouldn't be lace. I think any drop stitch pattern - with vertical or horizontal drop stitches (vertical as in Clapotis or horizonal formed by wrapping the yarn around several times on each knit stitch and then dropping the extra wraps on the next row) must count as lace too.

A. Lace is deliberate. Sorry buddy, have another beer for me

I'm voting A....ain't no way that's lace....

So sorry, but another C here.

It's going to have to be C for me, because that Veronik sweater is definitely not lace. I can kind of see his point, and while I would consider the scribble lace as lace, I think the important point might be the adjective - in this case SCRIBBLE lace.

Related, I'm currently knitting a Featherweight cardigan by Hannah Fettig wherein I am knitting in stockinette with size 4 needles and laceweight yarn and deliberately making a holey fabric, but this is not lace. In my opinion.

C/A Sorry Steven. It's the store's game and they can make the rules any way they want. I agree with many comments above. Skinny yarn on big needles can be very nice - but it's not lace - unless you are a muggle.
Colleen in Kansas

I have to go with A as well. I love the sweater, but it is not lace by my definition, which is something along the lines of strategically placed holes and more solid sections. The space create by knitting with really big needles is not holes, it is just loose knitting. While it can be very attractive, it is not lace. If we start to make something like the term lace all inclusive to loose knitting, then were are we going to draw the line. If 3.75mm needles and sockyarn is the new lace definition, how about worsted weight or bulky yarn on 3.75 mm. Who is going to decide where the "new" definition stops?

Bless you Stephanie for hosting this debate, and are you actually tallying the votes? Thank you as well, as it certainly is proofing to be an interesting read. :D

A. The stable deliberate holes are what makes lace, regardless of how they were accomplished. However, YOs are not the only way of making lace. I think a lot of straight knitters are forgetting that crocheted lace is beautiful lace that involves absolutely no YO or K2TOG to create the stable holes. I also would consider some drop stitch patterns to be lace.

A - Have another beer Steven that not lace.

For my own purposes, lace is A, and only A, but I'd be willing to go with C for the purpose of argument. However, this sweater still doesn't cut it... sorry!

Sorry - A is my definition of lace. Getting holes by happenstance, as when using huge needles, is not the same as creating lace deliberately with YO's and Dec's.

This was a very tough choice, but in the end, I have to go with C.

I see the argument that it's a lace and cables sweater. I think that since the holes are deliberate, that makes it fit the definition for the most part. I'm not a rigid person, and I can't say this really isn't lace.

Additionally, crochet lace isn't made with yarn overs like knit lace is. Yet we call it lace, and it's allowed. And the knit holes are not necessarily stable in the strict definition - if I make the stitch before or after the hole a little too tight or loose, it affects the size of the hole.

The defining factor in the end, though, is that when I look at that sweater, the defining feature is the cables. I prefer when people follow the spirit of a rule/law rather than just the letter of it, which is what made the decision for me.

In the end, a contest needs clear rules and a clear person who makes final rules interpretations. The line had to be drawn somewhere, and they made the line before that sweater. I'm sorry.

A

Dude, it's A. A. A. Good luck.

Sorry, Steven, but I'm voting with C, but it was a close call and I still love that cable-yet-mysteriously-lacelike sweater. :-)

A.
Possibly influenced by the fact that I don't like the sweater, but I don't think so.

C. You have to make lace. Lace that happens is just lacy.

A: I agree with this statement. Sorry Steve.

"Unless you're making holes through deliberate action, you're just making something with a loose gauge (or with a lot of mistakes). Sorry, Steve."

A. Sorry!!

I'm halfway between A and C. Something can be *lacey* if it's translucent and has a very loose gauge, but it's not technically lace. The shop could have further specified that to count it must be "knitted lace" where both right sides and wrongs sides are patterned, but they didn't. "Lace" needs YOs, dude. Sorry!

A big fat A... and maybe a little C.

I say B.

B - I think we should loosen up. Didn't EZ herself suggest that knitting is how we want to do it and there aren't any rules except maybe you shouldn't split your yarn.

A, for reasons along the lines of what Maryann at 5:32 PM wrote. I don't think it's as much about how it's created, although that's important, but more about the final appearance. Lace forms distinct shapes and patterns which may vary throughout the piece. Knitting stockinette or garter on big needles isn't lace; it's too homogeneous. It's more like a mesh or lattice.

I'm going with choice D: the people who make the contest make the rules.

However, couldn't Steve, instead of knitting his holes on larger needles, keep the same needle size and do a line of YO K2TOG either every other round or every round (which would make it knitted lace, rather than lace knitting--and maybe earn him double)? That would certainly meet the yarn shop's requirements.

C
and Steve - i really really wanted to come out 100% for you but just couldn't get there. sorry.

Sorry Steven, but it gotta be A. Lace is lace, cables are cables and large gauge is just that, large gauge. Suck it up, pick a different pattern, or knit it on the side.

Poor Steven indeed...it's "A"

Definitely A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

C and not A because I cannot doubt the ingenuity of smarter knitters than I to create new and exciting ways of making lace.

C, just barely over A.

I vote A. Large needles and fine yarn don't equal lace in my world.

I would even be a little stricter with the definition and say EZ is correct. Perfect example of the difference is the the Swiss Cheese Scarf pattern. Not lace but definitely deliberately placed stable holes.

A. But to each their own.

Sorry Steven, I'm gonna have to agree with "A".

I have to go with A. The fact that the word "cables" and not "lace" is in the name of the sweater, should have been his first tip off. Granted some lace has cables, but not this sweater. I know of some really loosely knit spa scrubbies and market bags, but that doesn't make them lace.

My first glance at the pattern made me think lacy. I don't think you can fight with the shop making the rules---but as a community maybe we could open up and broaden the definition. I'm a fan of EZ and so agree with her definition. But if you think about her contribution to knitting, you think of someone who broadened the definitions in a lot of ways! So depends on what is most important to you, Steven---the contest or the "lacy" sweater!

C....

A, I'm afraid.

C....

B. Get over yourselves.

Totally C, maybe even A.

Lookit. If I were knitting a garter-stitch shawl on huge needles for my mother-in-law, let's say; and she said "what beautiful lace!" and I did not correct her, then that is completely within bounds. HOWEVER, telling a bunch of knitting experts that it's lace would clearly be a non-starter.

Also, I think Steven is trying to give himself a speed advantage, which is probably not within the spirit of the law, either. It's a good try and all, but no go.

Sorry Steven, but C

Definitely A with a little leaning towards C.

Sorry man, big knitting isn't lace :)

Couldn't agree more with C. My apologies Steven, but I don't think you are going to win this war.

C. Nice try though. If it was a clapotis, maybe. Then again, Nahhh.

C.

A - and I think it should be super complicated and require lots of stitch markers because they are fun to use!

A. All the way. Working on your second six pack yet? Sorry, voting with the more commonly accepted definition of "lace"

My opinion? A.

then there's the definition of "knitted lace" versus "lace knitting" (knitted lace meaning patterned on both sides, where as lace knitting has purls on the wrong side)...but that just complicates things even more, doesn't it?

totally A

A...almost C, but have to go with A. Sorry, dude.

i am going to say C because i think it sounds a lot more middle of the road but i strongly lean towards the A side! sorry Steven!

B-- knitting, like all art, is subjective.

A. No question.Move on dude.

Sorry Steve..."C"

And...I am not sure you would win...if its big needles, may not be enough for someone doing a lacework shawl or stole.

Sorry Stephen, the answer is A. The sweater is nice and lacy-looking, but is not lace. As I have knit and ripped out thousands of yards of lace, I'm pretty familiar with the concept, if not with the product, as finishing a lace project is somewhat elusive, that clearly spells out the difference between what you want to call lace and what is really lace. If you have to work at it and insert lifelines and sweat blood, then it's lace. Large gauge is not lace.

While I admire your tenacity and persistence, I'd have to go with A. The Whisper Cables pullover is primarily cables. My friend describes lace as
"advertent holes" as opposed to beginner knitters who make inadvertent holes.
Marlyce in Windsor, Ontario

A. But I'd go so far as to call that sweater "lace-like", or "laceish", it's not textbook lace.

I vote C! Time to move on...

A without doubt.

I'm going with A
I also agree that the shop can set the rules on their own contest however they want.

I feel like I should apologize before stating that "A" really is the only interpretation that I can stand behind.... "Holes" created by a loosely-knit fabric is just a loosely-knit fabric. "Lace" infers a pattern, a deliberate placement of something other than knitting (i.e., HOLES).

It's A, for me. Using big needles doesn't make it lace.

A....it might qualify for a cables contest though.

It's A for me. This is really not about size. ;)

B. You wanted holes, you got holes. The pattern is designed so that the holes are located in a specific spot. It's a defined pattern of open and filled space. Steven, I'm with you (although, I can see that the majority does not feel the same way and the store sets the rules for their contest). Throw convention to the wind and knit this lace with abandon, sir!

B

Definitely A. I have knit lace and knit loose gauge. Lace is lace. For starters, it's a darn sight prettier!

A, of course. If it was as easy as using big needles, we all would have had knitted lace as our first project at the age of 5.

C

A. I see lace as having holes made from extra yarn employed strategically--ie only in certain spots. This differentiates it from netting; even though I could knit a cargo net with big enough needles, and you might call it openwork, I wouldn't call it lace. A YO, in essence, slaps some extra yarn over the needle and into the knitting, but stitches on either side of it don't have to be affected by this change in fabric circumstance--they can be solid, normal stitches.

The joy of knitting with YOs is that you don't have to have a loose gauge everywhere, to have a hole somewhere. This lets knitted lace achieve delicacy and beauty from alternating solid and airy portions.

And while it's not an argument deal-breaker, lace is the high-wire act of knitting, in which you can go without a lifeline, but you know what the consequences can be. Lace should make you feel you really need a beer or a nice cocktail after, if you decided to not use one. If the biggest danger in 'openwork' is a dropped stitch to ladder back up, then I'm not so much feeling the thrill.

If you knit an 'airy fabric' or make knitted netting, that's lovely, but I think the heart of knitted lace involves the use of yarn-overs.

B! Heck, a guy who wants to be involved in the competition... I say "Let him in!". That sweater looks lace enough to me. I know I wouldn't have the guts to wear it (to many holes for me). LOL

B. I just looked at a picture - it's lacey to my eyes.

I say C.
We need a word to describe all those fancy stitch patterns with holes in them, and we already have the word "lace", so I don't think we should be changing the scope of what is considered "lace".
However, this sweater might be defined as "openwork" (or some other similar term) and I would really like it if the store let Steven have it be an entry in their competition.

A. Cheesecloth is see-through and full of holes, but I wouldn't call that lace, either.

Have to go with A....otherwise there are a lot of beginning knitters whose first (and maybe even second or third) projects would have to be considered "lace" given the number of holes, increases, and decreases that appear throughout their work!

Sorry--I vote A. I looked at the sweater and I wouldn't classify it as lace. I think Steven may be the person who won the competition last year so he wants a repeat! He may have failed to mention that.

A all the way. I think there's a distinction between "lacey" and "lace." The former is a descriptive term for work like the Whispers Cables Sweater. In my head, lace as a noun is something with PATTERNS made by holes, not just columns of loose stitches or even yarnovers that blanket the entire fabric.

A

A.
The pullover is pretty, but that's not lace.

A. Absolutely.

Gotta go with "C", Stephen. I'm making the Geodesic Cardigan, and while it's translucent, there's no way I would count it as lace.

C dude - but I love the pattern, great sweater! But it's not lace.

Grab yourself another beer, Steven...I vote A. It's a lovely sweater, but it's called "Whisper Cables" not "Whisper Lace." (You've snagged 17 B's so far, though!)

A. If there aren't yarn-over's, it isn't lace.
Sorry, Stephen, that cardigan is just regular knitting at a looser gauge.

Sorry Dude. I've got to go with C. The Whisper Cables sweater has lacey (as in semi-sheer) panels, but it's not lace. Lace is something that has deliberate patterns made by holes. I think there's a lot of ways to make patterns with holes besides yarnovers and deliberate decreases, but that sweater doesn't qualify. To be honest - I don't think "scribble lace" is true lace either (for the same reason) - Sorry.

sorry Steven dude but it's C for me as well. I like your feistiness though

A

Just checked out some Scribble "Lace" and that's not lace - it's big knitting

B.

I think knitting loose gauge is intentionally placing holes. I don't think a yarn over is any more "stable" than loose gauge knitting either. A yarn over can borrow from nearby stitches.

If I knit a garment with very loose gauge panels blocked in by tighter gauge stitches, I would feel like that would be a lace panel.

Besides the cables in Veronik's pattern clearly control the placement of the holes.

Unfortunately it doesn't meet contest requirements no matter what, but intentionally placing holes of any sort is lace in my book. But maybe not as impressive.

My vote is A. Lace is a specific pattern of yarn overs and decreases. Some is done with "pattern action" on every row, and others are done with a plain "reset row" between, but it makes lace.

Not being a type A, I'm going with: B) "You know what? We should loosen up.Holes are holes man,and if you've got holes that showed up because you meant to get holes,then that's lace no matter how you got them."
Inclusion can be the mother of innovation........

C

C. I've almost finished a sweater that would qualify as lace by Steven's definition - knit in straight stockinette and then every 4th stitch laddered down to the bottom. Very pretty, but not lace.

A all the way.

A with an openness to C. Loose knitting is gauze, not lace. Totally different.

A. He can't be serious... Since when is cable knitting with fine gauge yarn and big needles lace?

C.
Sorry Dude. That's cables, not lace, I don't care how loose you knit it for holes. It is possible to have cables and lace, but I would have to say that achieving that requires yarnovers and decreases with the cabling.
See-through doesn't equal lace. You can reach see-through with an old T-shirt that's been washed too many times. Not that I would recommend that.

Totally A. Sorry, Steven. But just as "chocolatey" is most definitely not equivalent to "chocolate," "lacey" is not "lace."

I really think that I'm strongly leaning towards A. Sheer fabric can be a loose weave with "holes" but it's still sheer fabric and not lace. Lace really needs to have distinct, intentional holes.

It's an awfully pretty sweater, but not lace. A it is!

C

But if this doesn't pan out, you could always go for the argument that it's actually a sock.

A from me, too...

But really, in the case of this competition, it doesn't matter. They've set out the rules. If you want to take part, you need to follow them.

Ultimately if you want to call it lace in your own heart, go for it, but in a competition, just knitting along with your big needles, while the other competitors are are diligently making all those yarnovers and decreases sounds like an unfair advantage to me.

A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

Sorry, it has to be A - I didn't learn how to knit lace with all those yarn overs and teeny needles to have someone claim that lace comes from knitting with telephone poles ...

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs, but really dude. That's a cabled sweater, not a scribble lace scarf and you're stretched too thin on this one. But it is pretty!

Another A, and I'd like to repeat Deb's LOL comment from a few hours ago:

Oh- and also, to be real lace, there must be tears, angst, frustration, swearing, doing over and over and complete satisfaction when it's all done.
Deb.

Posted by: Deb. at May 27, 2010 4:06 PM

I have been debating (with myself, I do that often ;)) between C and A. I'm so sorry Steven, but I must go with A. Holes are holes, and I honestly believe that lace must be stable.... holes are not stable. Have fun knitting whatever you want, as long as it makes you happy, just realize that you probably won't be winning this particular contest.

Answer: A

BUT: For the ornery out there (I would be, and you also seem the type) Jared Flood's "Grove" mittens are technically lace since there are yo's all over the place, though you would not be able to tell by casual glance. I say knit a pair in every color!! And knit the sweater, because it is awesome!

A. No question. Period.
Sorry, Steven!

I've got to go with A. Using the fabric analogy, tulle or netting is translucent because of it's large gauge, but not lace.

C
That sweater is a cable knit as far as what you are doing with your hands goes. Steven are you doing this to compete or because you just want to make that sweater? If it's the sweater, make it anyway, and have fun!

I'm going with B, but I'm also one of those freaky people that doesn't care what needles people knit with, as long as it gets the job done and makes them happy...

I'm unafraid of rigidity, A it is. We could all use a little more rigid. It's a different world, EZ. Sorry, Steven, there it is.

C. Sorry Dude. Close, but not close enough.

A. Completely and totally A. Not sure what Steven is trying to accomplish with pitching a fit about this. From his blog I see that he's certainly capable of knitting real lace, so just pick something else dude.

Hi! I vote for C. My thinking is that while the sweater in question is "lacey", it is not lace. Seems too bad that the rules aren't flexible enough to allow a nice sweater to be made and counted, but as my high school history teacher used to say: "It's my yard and my toys and I get to make the rules".

I would be interested to know if there are other garment shaped pieces that do fit the rules.

After I have a glass of wine and spend some quality time in front of a fan to recover from a sweltering afternoon in (basically) an airplane hangar I may feel charitable enough to vote C, but for the moment I'm solidly in the A camp. Sorry Steven.

I have to go with A with a nod to C. Knitted lace is made with yarnovers and decreases.

After looking at the sweater (but not reading the other comments before voting) I honestly have to go with C. I would be open to a different definition of lace, but that sweater ain't lace. Sorry, Steven. Have a beer on me.

A. I would never hazard to disagree with Elizabeth Zimmerman. If they chose that definition for the rules, then that's it. A.

I'm going with C. Sorry. Not lace.

C with a side of A. Loose gauge may make create a lacy effect, but that doesn't mean it's lace. Sorry, Steven.

Yet another A-leaning-towards-C vote here. Lacy and lace are not synonyms for a reason. To be honest I wouldn't call scribble lace a true lace, either.

C, leaning toward B, but...no, it's C.

Sorry Dude, I'm totally voting A.

And trust me, you don't want to knit that sweater anyway - if there is one thing I learned fast when I began knitting is that small yarn on big needles = big knitted mess after the first wear. It's just not going to hold it's shape

I'm with all those who voted "C, with leanings towards A." I see lace as a form of openwork, but not all openwork is lace. Sorry! Despite the way the vote is going, I hope you feel the love Steven! I'm really glad you asked the question and made me think about it for a bit ;-)

Sorry, but I vote A. And it really is a cabled sweater.

I am going to say A, with a leaning towards C. I suspect that I would be cool with yarnovers alone--as in the spine of a shawl, or with another way of creating a hole. (I have a pattern that sometimes calls for making one by picking up between stitches to make a small lace hole.) Big needles, however, does not count, at least not in a contest about lace. The thing is that lace has a pattern that requires concetration. That could potentially slow a knitter down. (It certainly slows me down.) And so in a contest, big needles=unfair advantage. (Yes, I know. The cables mitigate that a bit. But the definition needs to avoid stockinette on big needles.)

I'm going to have to go with C, but with leanings towards A.

A

One foot in C's camp, one in A's. (Can I vote twice?) Either way, it's not lace. Pretty, but not lace.

I'm going with A. Loose threads or yarn may make a translucent open fabric, but lace has structure.

Sorry man, but A.

If you knit a swatch and it turns out that you knit so loose that the resultant fabric is looser'n a hooker the day the troops come home, then you shrink your needle size. You don't say "Hey look, LACE!" and incorperate it.

Fat needles do not (necessarily) lace make.

It's "A" all the way.

I'm in for A. It's a cable rib.

I'm so glad you're feeling better!

C. Well, sort of A, but yarn overs can be increases without the the neutralizing decreases and still contribute to an overall lace design.

But, hey Steven, pick your battles. Their contest, their rules.

Steven - feel free to knit up whatever you want and call it lace or whatever you like since you made it.

but in terms of the knitting contest which requires clear definitions and rules, i pick A "deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose". note that A doesn't require yarn-overs.

C is also true for me too because tatting and crochet can make lace without yarnovers. and really no matter how you look at it, that's a cabled sweater, no matter how loosely knit. a nice one too - personally i'd pick cables over lace any day!

It's a pretty sweater, but Steven's going to have to play by the rules if he wants to win. Have to go with "A" on this one.

I'm an A...you almost got a C out of me...but I'm not quite there. I mean...lace knitting has to be HARD in my opinion, and knitting a stockinette on huge needles would qualify if we agreed with this NEW definition of lace.

C!

As a descendant of Shetland knitters, I have to say A. As someone whose creativity doesn't always fit a 'traditional' mould, I would have to say C. But in this case, lace is lace so A it is. Big guage is no more lace than Bohus is Fair Isle. Sorry Steven. (I really hate to discourage a bloke who knits - so sorry. Chin up, there are plenty of lovely lace patterns out there.)

A. I mean, aren't there sticklers who say that "true lace" is when there's fancy knitting on BOTH sides, and that even things like the ubiquitous Swallowtail Shawl aren't "true lace" because they have all-purl "rest rows"? I'm not sure where that terminology originated, but I definitely see hoity-toity lace knitters using it from time to time. So if "true lace" is holes on both sides, then I think you've gotta have holes on at least once side to even qualify as "false lace."

Definitely A, although I could be persuaded on C - the negative space in lace has to be a design, not just a loose gauge. The difference here is between lace and lacy fabric, which is lace-like in that it has holes, but isn't actually made of lace.

Personally I think describing simple yarn-over eyelets as lace is pushing it!

I was going to say A, and then I saw the pattern photo, and it looks lacy! If I didn't know better, and I didn't have the pattern to look at, I would say it was lacy. I'm going with B.

Gotta go with 'A'. I'd consider 'openwork' mesh, not lace.

Sorry dude, but A. Try it, you might like it!

A. Just can't disagree with EZ; bad things could happen to my knitting.

D. I'm not really sure why Steven needs to justify his choice. If he wants to knit it and the contest organizers say it's not lace, then he needs to decide which is more important--the actual process of knitting a sweater he likes or the contest. Of course, I haven't been bitten by the lace bug yet, so maybe I'm too detached.

Sorry, Steven, but I'm also saying C with a strong inclination toward A--even if it is a lovely sweater. There are plenty of lovely lace sweaters out there, though, if you must consume huge quantities of yarn while sweltering under a lacy sweater.
I guess I wonder what the purpose of limiting the contest to lace and socks is, though--small weight of yarn? Challenge of complicated patterns with lengthy, difficult to remember repeats? Must the socks be lacy to qualify? I'm curious about the motivation behind the contest's parameters, even if I really don't think that the sweater meets any definition of lace (even the quoted, non-knitting-centric one, as I doubt you could stand to make that many cables out of inelastic silk or cotton. Just the thought of it turns my stomach and makes my hands hurt!).

Put me down for C with a side of A. Sorry, Steven.

A. Sorry Steven. I'm a purist. You have to make the holes on purpose! I'm not saying you can't make your Whisper Cables Pullover; it just won't count for the contest.

This poll isn't looking so good for Steven, is it?

C. When I first started knitting, I thought small yarn on big needles was lace. There are some very floppy cowl-like tubes that have never been worn. . .

I've got to go with A.

A. I mean otherwise, my first droopy, full of dropped stitches piece of knitting would be lace and I don't really think it is.

C. I'm willing to be convinced that yarn-overs aren't the only way to make lace (especially if we include non-knitted lace), but that's not lace.

A all the way. I'm a lace knitter, and that sweater ain't lace.

Steve - A. but why the battle? If I was your therapist (I'm not am I?) I'd have to ask you why? Why do you want everyone to be up in arms? We're all for you man! We like that you are a bit competitive and you want to get in there with your needles and fly atter but hey there are a million ways to spend one's limited time on this earth. Let's go have a beer and talk about Irish lace - just be glad anyone who wants in to the contest doesn't have to go blind with that shit. man oh man.

It's "A" friend. Make the darned sweater and forget the contest or enter the contest according to the contest rules...can't have it both ways. We are grown-ups after all. Knitting is for enjoyment. Come on.

It's a lovely sweater, but I have to go with C. Steve.

I just did a search on Ravelry using the words "lace" and "cable" and found this one... http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/29-lace-and-cable-top

Maybe Steve could knit up one of these!

B!

C. It's a cabled sweater. I'm all for the underdog, but they had to draw a line in the (metaphorical) sand. And if you want to play in this sandbox I think you'll need to find another pattern to play.

I'd say A. Lace is making deliberate holes not just something that has holes in it (worn socks, perforated tea bags etc!). Pick another pattern, and lets face it, there are GORGEOUS lace patterns out there, how hard can it be to find one you like?

A

It's A. The sweater is gorgeous, but not lace.

A.

Needle size does not lace make.

The question wasn't what WE would consider lace.
The only question is what the person who is giving out the prizes considers lace.
The answer has to be A in this instance.

I'm on the side of A. The sweater does not say "lace" to me. It says, "cabled sweater with a looser gauge than normal." I also wouldn't define scribble lace as technically being lace, either, since holes created with loose knitting, not by a pattern of holes, don't look like lace to me.

I vote B. Looks like a lacy sweater to me. It's made that way on purpose, man. But, he's going to have to suck it up and follow their rules.

A. Sorry Steven :(

C. It's not quite a lace sweater.

I say yes for Steven. And, if you make exceptions for others, you can make an exception for this. It is lace in my opinion, just not EZ's definition.

I'd go with A. See-through-ness created by too big needles only look lacy, but they are just loose stitches, not really holes. Sorry Steven, I think you have a very good taste to pick up that cardigan, but it's not lace for me.

A. Sorry Steve, there is no other way to create true KNITTED lace.

A. Sorry Steven. Holes must be placed deliberately in a pattern. Just loose knitting doesn't qualify.

Definitely C

A. And for the record, I do not consider scribble lace to be real lace either. Lacey and lace-like are NOT lace.

C. While I applaud Steven for wanting to knit a lovely sweater, its not lace. Sorry, Steven... pick another pattern.

A. Suck it up, Steven. I would never argue with EZ.

I'm with Steven on this one. That sweater gives an impression of 'lace' to me. Technique is to be used to create an effect, and does not in an of itself define that which it used to create.

Sorry, Steven; it's C with strong leaning to A.

I think I'd have to vote C, but agree with Meghan on this: what's the purpose of this contest? I would think there are a lot more interesting/creative contests out there than who can use the most yarn. I'd run from this one as fast as I can -- it sounds awfully frustrating for $50 worth of yarn.

[Wait. Having just reread my comments it seems the purpose of this contest is to *sell* way more than $50 worth of yarn, so it obviously makes sense from a business point of view if not from a sanity-of-knitter point of view.]

A solid C. I checked out the pattern, and yes, that is a cable sweater with neat spaces between them. Any airy knit is lace in my books, but I agree that THAT particular pattern, although now in my queue, should not count.

Sorry Steven, gotta go with A here.
To me lace is lace because it is holes that are hard to make!! You are deliberatly making holes by manipulating stitches.
It takes longer (because of those extra hand-movements for yarn overs), requires more skill than regular knit/purl, and uses more yardage.

Definitely A.....

C with an A on the side!
Tried to convince myself on B but I just couldn't do it . Sorry :-(

I like to support gumption, of which Steven shows signs, but ... A. Sorry, dude.

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs but that sweater is absolutely not one of them. the sweater is simply loose knitting, not lace.

Well, I see it differently. When I looked at the pic of the sweater, I saw "lace" between the cables.. no matter how it got there. So B or D, which seems to be the minority opinion. I am not saying this is Shetland lace.. but that openwork look sure looks lacey to me.

Obviously the store needs to give up the control freak aspect of trying to define lace, and instead make the yarn weight the focus of their contest. Just specify the YPP, and that the yarn can't be held double or as a carry-along, and let the chips fall where they may.

That's my advice as someone who was raised by a family of lawyers, and has often had to design strategies that minimize the potential for endless arguments.

A - Lace is lace. Other stuff can be lacy. Next you can start a discussion about bead knitting vs. Beaded knitting

A.
I mean knitting fingering yarn with size 13 needles in St st is just creating a mesh-like fabric, not really lace.
Close but no cookie.

I have to go with A. The crappy stockinette rectangle I knit on too big needles when I was first learning does not count as lace (though how clever would I be if my very first attempt at any knitting was lace?!)

C... leaning towards A.

I'm going to go with C.

What about crochet lace? I'm assuming that that doesn't involve yarn overs as such... or iron lace?

But I don't think the space between the cables is open enough for me. Also the fact that there are cables makes me think it is a 'cabled sweater' rather than a 'lacey sweater'. Given the presence of the cables, the ratio of hole to not hole would have to be bigger for me to be happy calling that lace. They make it more structured, or something, I think is what my brain is thinking.

Very cute sweater, but I'm going with a. Good luck, Steven!

B

Definitely A for lace that's made by knitting. There are lots of other ways of making lace (crochet, bobbin etc), but they all involve making planned holes to create some kind of pattern. Very big gauge knitting is not lace.

My vote is for C with a nod to D. The yarn shop has clearly defined guidelines for it's contest. If you wish to participate, you should respect that in my opinion. Rules is rules.

"A", without a doubt!

A. If you want to enter a contest you have to follow their rules. Maybe there's another contest that you could knit the sweater for...

C.

and I'd also say he should let it go. it's so not worth the energy to argue over this. it's a knitting contest...who cares what some shop is doing? knit the sweater, don't knit the sweater, whatever.

It's cold here in the antipodes....all this talk of holes in knitting is rather draughty at the moment.
Besides, everyone knows that lace is negative space surrounded by structure - loose knitting won't count.

C with A leanings...but knit on steven! and have fun, even though someone else may be holey-er than thou...

vote c

A

Loose knitting is not lace just because it can mimic it in some situations. Acrylic can mimic wool in some situations, but it is not wool. I can call the stockinette sleeve I'm knitting "uncrossed cables" as much as I like, but it's not a cabled sleeve.

I'm all for exploring fabrics and techniques, but I don't see the point in confusing terms. I don't participate in a lot of contests and knitalongs because I like to knit what I like to knit when I knit it. So I understand where he's coming from if he doesn't not feel like knitting lace for that contest. But the answer is to not enter the contest, not to try to confuse the meaning of lace.

Sorry, dude. A. Doesn't really look like lace to me. But it does look like a beautiful design well worth the knit. Enjoy!

Sorry, Steven, but it's A. It's not lace if you just use big needles. It may be pretty, but it's not lace.

Er... D. I think it's important to consider the intent of the contest. It's SUMMER. I'm guessing the shop wants to find out if sock knitters win year round, or if lace takes precedence in the cooler months? If that intent is considered, I think the sweater is 'summery' enough to constitute a 'lacy summer' type of garment - it's totally wearable in heat, at least for evenings walking on the beach or something like that.

Of course, if I'm wrong on the intent and the shop says no, then he should get over it and knit a super big wisp :)

Vote A. I almost always knit what I want to knit without worrying about knitalongs or contests, so I can't say I have much sympathy. Sorry!

A with a hint of C, and some D thrown in meaning, wow, beautiful sweater!

I say B. When I look at that pattern, I see lace, regardless of how it's made. Lace is light and airy rather than a solid, substantial fabric. When I buy lace a the fabric store, it doesn't necessarily have holes in it; sometimes it's just a plain ruffle, but it's lace just the same.

B.

I had no idea knitters were so uptight... holes are holes baby! :)

Sorry, Steven, but I have to vote for C.

I vote A. Lace is yo-yo and k-tog.

Sorry Steven,

I think the holes in the Veronik Avery sweater would be correctly called a mesh rather than lace. I think lace needs to have a more aesthetic placement of the holes to be considered lace. And by my definition, I probably wouldn't call a whole stole of YO, K2 tog lace either, even though it fits the EZ description. I'd call it mesh. I'm going with C, because I think you might be able to aesthetically place holes with a technique other than yarnover/decrease but in a pinch I'd also take A. Veronik's sweater is lovely and you should go ahead and knit it, but I don't think it qualifies as lace. Sorry.

Weighing in from the hospital where I'm waiting to have my second baby...

I vote A. Sorry Steven.

A. Maybe C, depending on the new "lace".

If anything knit with big needles that created holes were considered 'lace', then this would mean projects with the wrong gauge could be considered lace.

A. But maybe you could argue you are going to put the sweater on your feet while sitting on the sofa knitting, therefore making it socks.

b - but I also want to state that lace is what you make it - why put so much of a strict definition on something that we're not personally making.

Sorry, gotta go with A.

I go for A. While it is a beautiful sweater, and does have a "lacy" look to it, it is not really lace. Time to go to Plan B.

A

I'm torn between A and C. Can I split my vote?

I HAVE to go with A. Otherwise, knitting Lopi with size 19 needles would be lace.

Sorry Stephen.
PS I enjoyed meeting you (admiring your shorts) at MDSW

A. Sorry Stephen.

Definitely A.

B - It looks like a lace type sweater to me. If I wasn't standing close up, I'd think it was lace panels. The impression of something ought to count a wee bit.

wow, lots of folks with thoughts on this.
My thought, C.

A. I don't agree that overly large stitches make it lace. It may be pretty, but it just isn't lace.

I'm feeling mostly A and a little C. There may be other ways to do lace, but just knitting on big needles and calling it lace is cheatish.

Beautiful sweater though - maybe just save it for a cable knitting contest!

D. Lace is like porn, you know it when you see it. If you can see a bra through it I say call it lace.

Another vote for C

Holy Crow, that's a lot of replies. I have to go with the majority ( I think?) and say "A". Lace is made by a deliberate pattern, not just "airy" knitting with large needles.

Maybe have two beers, because A is the right answer.

I have to go with C. I remember reading that crochet was created to make cheap lace quickly. So, a poor man's lace. It's clear that lace doesn't have to be knitted to be lace--the thing that makes lace lace seems to be the strategic arrangement of holes in an attractive and purposeful pattern. (Socrates would have a field day here...this leaves open the definition open to saying that if you take a box cutter to a t-shirt you've created lace, but I digress.)

That being said, the pattern he's chosen is not lace. It's cables done on larger needles. Nice try.

C - after much deliberation and checking on my part

C - and I was tempted by A. The Whisper Cables sweater is very pretty, but it's not lace.

A. Lace is stable. What Stephen is describing is "Lacy", not "Lace", IMO.

I'm going to have to go with A.

P.S. Darcy made me laugh. She's right, it's tough to beat crochet for whipping up yards of lace!

C dude. Sorry, but you're argument is kinda thin.

A. Definitely. Stockinette - no matter how loose, is still stockinette. You gotta add some yarnovers or something to make it different... Good luck.

whoa! already 511 posts before me? i see this is a very debate-able (sp?) issue! without much thought or research into the question on hand (or without reading previous posters' opinions) i am going with my instinct and voting for Option A.

The yarn shop is hosting a contest. They established rules. It's done. You don't want to play - then don't play.

A. :( I really really wish it wasn't so, for your sake.

I vote A. :(

C- cabled sweater does not equal lace.

Hmm, I think we can argue this one till the end of time, but I tend to go for A. In every "true" lace pattern I've ever read or tried, yarn-overs and decreases are used deliberately to make the pattern. Good luck, Steve.

A. That sweater doesn't look like lace to me. Good luck with your next choice.

Sorry - A!

That sweater is lovely, but it is not lace. Lacey, yes, but not lace.

A - that's totally not lace.

Ditto Jill. It's their contest, their rules.

A

My vote is C.Isn't it obvious in the name of the sweater, Whisper CABLES pullover? Happy Knitting!

Yup. I am for C.

Sorry dude, gonna go with A. I think there is a whole other unnamed category for deliberately loose and dropped stitches, though I'm not sure what it should be called. Hanging cables, the ever-popular Clapotis, decorative dropped stitches and large needles used to create open fabrics like the scarves that were popular awhile back should all be in that category, but that category is not lace.

I would give him a cookie for creatively trying to make what he wants to knit work for the contest though!

A - extra large needles for loose gauge is "cheater lace" at best. And I'm good at that stuff! =)

A-Beautiful sweater but not lace!

it's A for the contest rules because it is aiming for yardage and not beauty, so an easier pattern undermines the goal of the contest. But outside of contests, I think people can characterize their work however they like.

Sorry, my dear. A.

I've got to go with A. The holes have to be made on purpose, with actual technique. Not just by using big needles and comparatively thin yarn.

Sorry, Dude; I go with A. "Lacy" is an adjective for lace-LIKE, but not always lace. Netting has holes but isn't lace. Large-gauge knitting is LOOSE but not lace. Demanding a new definition because the old doesn't suit your wishes doesn't make it lace. The fellow I date doesn't like the rules of the English language; they don't suit his preferences. No matter how tightly he clings to his version of what the language SHOULD be, he will always be misunderstod when he speaks sentences that make no sense.. He (and you) may wish some standards weren't immutable, but dammit, some standards just aren't part of the grey areas that can be p*ssed with.

But it really IS a gorgeous pattern - just do it some other time.

A with maybe a tiny bit of C. Sorry!

A.

If I was knitting something that had complexity and delicacy, like a lace shawl, and it was competing alongside something that was lovely but simply made lacy by using big needles with fine yarn, I'd feel a bit ripped off.

I've got an A vote from Oregon. Or possibly D. I'm hung on the difference between "lace" and "lacy." To me, knitting on big needles is "lacy" meaning "kind of like lace without being lace."

Then too there is the difference between "lace knitting" and "knitted lace" but that's a discussion for another day.

A for sure. Lace is intentional; large holes (even if planned) are incidental. I thought it would be a closer issue, like, is it really lace if one has to purl back on the even rows instead of patterning on every row. This is not even in that league. Sorry, Steven!

I'd have to say that it's lacY, but not lacE.

I'm with Jill & mjzen too. It's up to the yarn shop, it's their rules.

B - Holes are holes.

That being said, the yarn shop is running the contest so I suppose they can set up whatever rules they want. But I would hope they would be clear about their definitions up front.

A.

A - but might be persuaded to go to C.

I vote B. I stretch knitting definitions all of the time and highly encourage others to do the same.

I vote for A -- although I might be persuaded to C. It's not lace without yarnovers...

as the person who put this question to stephanie, all i can say is wow. i know what i'll be blogging about tomorrow.

and my vote is obviously b.

A.
But that sweater already has hole in between the cables!

C

Mostly A with strong elements of C, but that is most definitely not a lace sweater; it's cabled.

C

Yeah, it's definitely A. Sorry Stephen. There's a difference between lace and lacy.

A. Sorry, dude, that's not lace. Fine yarn on big needles blocked huge is not lace. Holey, yes, maybe lacey, but not lace.

A. "If you don't want to play by the rules, don't play the game."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
from an opinionated knitter

C - It's the Whisper Cables Sweater and not the Whisper Lace sweater. If he were wanting to knit something on the order of the Roseleaves Tunic, I could see his point, but lace weight yarn does not = lace pattern.

B. This "sweater" needs to be worn with a substantial undergarment, and is therefore rather decorative, rather than substantial. There are many ways to make holes, and many ways to make things "lacy". If in doubt, the benefit must be given to the knitter. I believe is is blasphemy to discourage an enthusiastic knitter - Period.

sorry dude, A) That's not lace.

A. Sorry, but it's barely holey anyways. And it's not lace. The pattern will wait until it is ready to be made. This is a sign that this sweater was not meant to be-for now. Pay heed to the gods of craft.

A has my vote. If I called every mistaken YO lace, I would have many, many, many new patterns. My new knitters make YO's in projects, where they were not intended. I think the Belgian and Flemish lace are the perfect examples of "lace". Imagine, if you will, a wedding dress embellished with larger holed intricate stockinette stitch, rather than true lace? Not so much. But each to his own! ;-{

A definitely. Part of lace is the inherent complexity of the pattern created, and its beauty. A bunch of big holes created by baseball-bat-sized needles is neither complex nor beautiful.

A gets my vote, too, though I understand completely about the need to make things (including rules) be the way *I* want them to be! LOL

I mostly think that, well, it's open, it's lace. It won't look good unless severely blocked it's lace. And shetland lace starts with a giant square of garter made on too big needles.

So, B. Loosen up, it's lace.

BTW, in "real lace", as described in Little Women, which is bobbin or needle lace, the ground is open work, just basic weaving or braid like techniques done with fewer threads than a fabric would be, and *that* makes it lace. So, since bobbin lace predates knitted lace by several hundred years, just as needle lace predates bobbin), using older lace techniques as examples and extrapolating forward, using bigger needles and blocking it out, qualifies, logically, as lace.

If you argue that it's not, you gonna tell me that the ground I spent 3 years making for my daughters' tallis in bobbin lace isn't lace? No, I didn't think so ;-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/9562035@N02/2110371901

A.. but i think there could be wiggle room here.. Steve just isn't in it..

Sorry, have to cast my vote with A.

I'm a knitting "lurker' but I Have to weigh on this one -- definitelly A. YOs create lace.

I'm voting A. Sorry, man... but that's just not lace. That's cables.

Thank you for sharing the links to the tutorials, I needed those for *if* I ever finish this sweater I'm working on, I suck at piecing it together!

gotta go with C

A - I think you have to plan and structure those holes with y/o.

I vote for A. And besides, if Steven is competitive, he will lose with that sweater. It isn't nearly in the running considering how much yarn people used for lace in the contest in previous years. My daughter was runner up 2 years ago, using almost 5 balls of malabrio lace.

C, with a little bit of A. Sorry dude.

I vote C with a slight leaning to A. :)

Wow - this guy needs to find more ways to spend his time than trying to go up against the knitting gods by re-defining techniques. Sorry Steven, but my vote is against you. A 'holey' sweater is not lace, nor does it sound very nice to knit up or wear (have yet to look at the pattern). To me lace seems light, airy, delicate, with intentional holes. Just sayin.

I vote A, but give you an E for Effort.

Very grudgingly voting C...Although I want to go with A, Sorry.

In my mind, there's a difference between "lace" and looking "lacey." I think the sweater pattern is lacey, meaning that it's holey and see0through and has the look of lace, but is not specifically lace itself.

I also think that it wouldn't be fair to knit a cabled pullover (even if it looks holey and lacey) while everyone else was doing lace. Those aren't the same, and there would be different yarn amounts used, time spent, etc. It wouldn't make a very even playing field.

So I guess I go with A. Lace is made by putting in holes on purpose, but you can make something look lacey in other ways.

A but with a possibility of C. One way or another the holes have to be deliberately made -beyond just changing gauge- by adding stitch complexity beyond the basic knit and purl stitches. While cables do manipulate the stitches the knitting of each stitch is still only an individual knit or purl action and does not therefore count as lace knitting. This is also supported in the differentiation between lace and knitted lace with the former complex on every second row and the latter lace knitting on every row- those who knit lace also like to emphasise the difficulty within lace knitting.

Surely part of the issue with the competition is knitting at a big gauge you can just speed along and get through projects and yarn more quickly than if you're checking a chart and making more fiddly stitches all the time? I can see where they're coming from

Steven, I hate to break it to you, but A. Besides, I don't think you should tweak your plans to some knitalong or contest -- it's knitting. It should be fun. Make what you want to, and who cares if it's lace!?

Sorry bud, but it's A. And if you REALLY want to start something, by definition (by some) "knitted lace" is lace that has holes (made by yo's) on both RS and WS and "lace knitting" has the yo's only on the RS. :)

C, with a strong inclination for A. Sorry Steven, although I did enjoy my brief peek at your blog (love the hotpants).

I think I'll have a Mirror Pond Pale Ale.

A. Without a doubt.

C, leaning strongly toward A. Sorry Steven, though I did enjoy my brief peek at your blog (love the hotpants).

A

Sorry, Steven.

Oops. does anyone else have trouble believing that the post button is like the elevator button? One click just doesn't seem to do the job.

A for me

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to say:

C

And I'm not entirely sold on the "scribble lace" either--though that does not imply I am doubting Debbie New's "smartness" in any way.

B! I'm totally with Steven on this one. If one intends and achieves the desired lacy look, I don't see why the specific techniques are important. I like LoriAngela's idea of a "new way of making lace" contest.

A. is the correct choice, and that sweater is not lace.

Can I be part of the group that splits their vote between A and C?

For those looking to expand/redefine the definition of lace, I propose to more broadly and specifically define lace as "intentionally manipulating individual stitches to produce stable holes arranged in an aesthetically pleasing manner."

This covers the traditional yo and k2tog staples in lace, but would include dropped stitch patterns (such as Clapotis). And for the purposes of the store's contest it would also be broad enough to include crochet lace. (And tatting.) But not a loose gauge. The key is that the stitches have to be treated differently; some are knit together to lean left, or right, or created out of thin air, or crochet three in a single stitch/space.

Sorry Steven. Beautiful pattern though.

Sorry, Steven, if you're just knitting at what is arguably too large a guage, that's not lace. I knit a lot of lace, and EZ's definition is right. A is the answer.

A. It's a pretty sweater, and it's lacey, but it's not *lace*.

I say B - it's lacy enough for the purposes of counting yardage for a contest. Cut the guy a break.

sorry I have to vote A

I have to go with A. Sorry Steven.

I have to go with C.

Dude, this top, while see-through due to loose gauge, is not lace. Sure, it can look lace-y, but it's not lace. Sorry. It is however, pretty. Best of luck with it!

A. C is close, but I think things like scribble lace are like false solomon's seal or something, where they look similar but they really aren't the same thing.

C.

I vote B

Absolutely A...

I go w/ A--EZ rules!

There's Lace.. there's lacy.. and then there's that sweater. Which is neither. That said, as both a knitter and crocheter, if they are letting the hooker's play in the contest, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, so you might as well knit what you want.

I think the best option is to go with the store's rules and definitions. The bigger stink you make, the less they might want you around...just speaking from retail experience.

Totally A, no other way!

I vote for A. Sorry dude.

A. Lace is deliberately placed holes for aesthetic effect.

Definitely A. Big needles will get you a sheer fabric, but sheer is not the same as lacy.

I'll have to go with C. You can certainly make lace by crochet or drop stitch patterns, neither of which are paired YO/decreases.
But the important thing is those require PATTERNING, and large gauge knitting to make open, airy knitting isn't a pattern, it's a happy coincidence.

I vote for A as well. Sorry Steven.

Sorry Steven, but "real lace" in knitting to me is A. Whisper Cables is "lace look."

A. Suck it up dude

Never apologize for a Ravelry link! It's such a treasure trove of useful knitterly information.
So, I went to see the sweater; very nice, and I wondered about the sections in between the cables, but did not see lace.
Then I searched "lace" in Ravelry. 334 pages of 'lace' came up. Now some of those can be discounted because it refered to Lorna's Laces Yarn. Dropped stitches such as those used in Clapotis are classified as lace...but that's even a stretch I think. (stretch? hehe)
As far as the debate? "A"
Enjoy the 334 pages of Ravelry projects to choose from Steven and have fun with your summer knitting.

D....I think I'm going into space here but...if lace is about stable holes, isn't it really the negative space that defines it? Kind of like a stable black hole? The consistency and stability of the space that is created defined the lace.
Kind of like Escher.

C. To be nice. But after I've knit orgy bitty stitches and all those yos. THAT is lace.

A, no doubt about it...

I gotta say "A". The effect is 'lacey' and it is see-through and quite beautiful - but not lace. I created a stunning 'lace' shawl with big needles and Habu silk - people gasp and touch it when they see it. Then they blink and remark how beautiful the effect is and it isn't lace at all. That remark isn't a negative, just a remark of wonderment and truth.

I looked at the sweater and said "that's lacy" B,

Oh, come on!!

A

Steven, just suck it up and cope. Be a man and accept it. Large needles to make a ridiculously loose fabric is. not. lace. Never was. Never will be.

And, no, I'm not opinionated at all. Why do you ask??

A. Thought about C for a bit, but then decided it's really A.

A - Have a great weekend.

I guess it's up to the makers of the contest what they want to consider lace but I'm waffling between A & C. If I cracked a few beers feeling sorry for Steven I may end up voting B or even D because by then I'm sure I'd have a better idea.

I've got to go undecided as I can't tell from the picture what the stitch pattern really calls for. Nice looking sweater, though.

C, but kind of mostly to A. I've knit patterns that say they're lace with no yarnovers, but a cabled sweater isn't it.

B

Because I hate the knitting police.

A. (Pretty sweater, though.)

A, all the way. That sweater isn't lace, it's lacy. Lace-Y. Which tells you it's 'like lace', which says it isn't lace by definition.

You can knit anything on too-big needles, and that just makes the fabric loose and floopy. Hey, I can block regular knitting until it looks lacy.

Nah, lace makes patterns via deliberately placed holes, not just big holes all over. Now if that pattern had faggoting between the cables, it would be lace. If it had drop stitches between the cables, it wouldn't be. In that case, it would be an example of different techniques to achieve a similar (but not identical) result of dense stitches next to airy stitches.

But the sweater shown? Not lace, in my book!

I've been a lacemaker since the early 80s. I vote A.

C

Sorry, Stephen. Nothing personal.

My vote is with A. Not to muddy the waters further - but - shall we spook Steven even more by pointing out the existence of "knitted lace" vs. "lace knitting".

Definitely A, but also part of C (really dude, that's a cable sweater). Lace & see-through are not mutually exclusive ideas.

It's a real pretty pullover, but it's not lace. Sorry - but I'm an A.

Ya know I was on the fence between not caring about definitions so much and wondering why there are so many rules until several comments reminded me that lace means counting and stitch markers and swearing and scowling and muttering and screaming NO NO NO!

So, as much as I would love to be the lone voice saying - sure it's lacy enough for me - I have to go with C

C

A but leaning towards C.

B

c

I'm with C. I wouldn't use the strict Elizabeth Zimmerman interpretation of lace, but just knitting something on big needles so you can see through it is NOT lace, which is a decorative additive to a pattern and done deliberately. So, sorry Steven, you're wrong here.

Normally I would say A, without hesitation. However I think Stephen does have a point; I had a look at the pattern being debated and it *does* have a "lacy" feel. At first glance I would've said it was probably lace. So I guess I'll go with C, more or less, but I do feel that he has a point.

B but I think Franklin Habit, King of Lace, should make the final decision.

I have to go with A.

I have to say C - it's a pretty pullover, very dainty but very NOT lace! Lace is a series of artistically arranged permanent holes, not simply dropped stitches!

With 40+ knitting behind (and hopefully in front off) me, a big and firm

A

Steph, did you realize what you are getting yourself into? That said I have to vote for C with a large touch of B. I really think we should loosen up, but the sweater in question while gorgeous doesn't look like lace to me. It's cables and it's not all that see through. I'm sorry to be unable to support you on this one Steve. I really wish I could, but it's just not my idea of lace.

B. I mean, come on.

Gotta go with A - sorry Steven!!

I vote A, with a touch of C.

Several (somewhat long-winded) comments:

1) That sweater is gorgeous. I am drooling, in love, and musing on what colors might be best to knit it myself (thanks for bring it to my attention!). You have excellent taste. But it isn't lace.

2) I am a seriously obsessed lace-freak. I have made bobbin lace, tatted lace and knitted lace (in both the "lace knitting" and "knitted lace" definitions). I have not made crocheted lace only because I have zero knowledge of or skill at crochet (yet...). I feel strongly that there is more than one path to lace. I also feel that "lacy," "airy" or "translucent" fabrics are not the same as "lace" fabrics, regardless of the technique used to create them. Both Clapotis from Knitty and the Peacock Feathers shawl from Fiddlesticks are beautiful and in my queue; the former is lacy, but the latter is lace.

3) In any technique, I feel the key is stable holes aesthetically placed to form a motif. Some lace is denser, some airier; it may be intricate or simple. But it's still a deliberate motif.

4) For the contest, SOME definition is needed. The definition chosen by the store is not perfect, by any means, but it is reasonable. That sweater doesn't fit, sadly.

5) Knitting is a joyous thing, both in the process and the results (not always painless, granted, but joyous nonetheless). Choose a different pattern that speaks to you from among the many beautiful lace patterns out there to knit for the contest. Then turn around and knit that Gorgeous cable sweater for the sheer pleasure of it. And take pride in your ability to create something both beautiful and useful in whatever technique!

6) If you're ever in the Minneapolis/St. Paul Metro area, let's meet up someplace to knit and freak out the muggles!

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs, but really dude. That's a cabled sweater, not a scribble lace scarf and you're stretched too thin on this one. Try harder Steven, you've almost got me.

I will say, though, that the idea that small yarn on big needles and calling it lace hasn't worked for me since I learned how to make real lace knitting. In fact, lace doesn't even need larger-than-usual needles. So while that sweater looks fairly lacy, I wouldn't call it actual lace.

Sorry but A....

A. Lace can be knit with larger needles to give the sense of openness, but doesn't become lace without purposeful "holes" made by yarn overs....sorry Steven.

Definitely A. The definition of lace is a generally-agreed-upon thing. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so. Why not make something for the contest and then make the sweater? Twice the fun!

A or C. I flipped a coin: A.

A. And I think these comments will only affirm his belief that everyone is out to get him.

Sorry dude. I say A.

I vote B, I think lace is lace is lace. It's a new knitting world now and lace should be real holes (yarn overs), or loose knitting or knitting with your feet, that would probably end up with holes. I say anything goes. Cool contest. I think I'm going to have to go for it if you decide to do it.

A

A man. Sorry dude, but that really isn't lace. It's lace if you're making something that is exulted by the deliberate holes and becomes something more because of them (kind of like Swiss cheese, in fact).

My choice is C.

Changing needle size on this will not prevent/permit holes appearing - and being "lace". It would change the size of the cables, but the cables would still appear as cables.
Changing needle size on a lace/lacy sweater will make the lace-holes closer together/farther apart. But there will still be holes.

I hope that this is a multiple choice exam, 'cause I'm going to have to go for C and A both. The sweater is "lacy" due to the guage/needle sizing, but not "lace". Sorry Steven.

C - maybe there are other ways to make lace, but your cabled sweater isn't one of them ;)

Sorry Steven, but it's A. You have to deliberately make and place those holes....

A. They need to be deliberate and placed, and why are you trying to win by finding the fastest biggest use of yarn rather than winning by the shear force of your knitting prowess?

Well, I was totally on board for A, because my definition of lace is intentional holes for design and/or structure. But buttonholes aren't my definition of lace, and he makes a good point for that. And I consider Clapotis a *form* of lace in the finished product, but I wouldn't say it was lace in knitting.

I guess I'm at C. Looking at that sweater, it' ain't lace as I see it, even as flexible as I can be. Big knitting does not equal lace.

I would say B because you are deliberately using big needles with small yarn to make an open fabric that is lace looking and there fore be construed as lace. You can have lace and cables in the same pattern so definitely B.

C. For the same reasons many others have already stated very well.

C or maybe D. I don't think lace has to be open and being open doesn't make it lace. I made a scarf with thin yarn and big needles and a lace pattern, quite open, unquestionably lace. I made an afghan with the same pattern and needles but thick yarn. Not a bit translucent or open, but it's also lace. I just finished the Hermione hat with cables and a few yarnovers, but it ain't lace. Steven's sweater looks like it has delibrately placed holes, but it isn't lace either.

I vote A but think he might be trying to win by doing something that is faster and easier?

I'm inclined to go with C, I think, for a variety of reasons.

I'm going with C. I think we can all be creative and inventive and change the way we think about "lace" (or whatever established term there is, like gurnsey sweater or selbu mittens,...) but in the end there's a definition for what's what. Call the sweater "new lace" or "modern lace" or "contemporary lace" or whatever you want, but imho it does not fit the classic definition of lace that Stefanie dug up.

My vote is C, with a generous smattering of A. Sorry Steve, but lace should mean doing something more than just using oversized needles to knit holey stockinette.

Sorry, but A it is.

Definitely A. Big knitting may be lace-like but it isn't the real McCoy. My bad analogy is a real flower & a plastic or silk imitation - both can be lovely, but definitely not the same!

I gotta say C. But I also say that according to their definition, things like Clapotis aren't lace, either. And if someone knits that and they say it's okay -- then I think you have a shot. Maybe you could sneakily suggest the Clap and if they say yes, you can give them a big "Ah - HAH!!!!" :)

I vote A
http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/orkney-pi
This has a bigger yardage and fits the definition as lace. Go on Steven, I dare you...

I am going with D. I think it all depends upon your audience. If you were going to ask a professional lace designer, I think they might say 'dude- that is just a loose cable, not lace'. However, if you were sitting on the bus and a non-knitter came up to you and asked you what you were working on, you could probably call it lace because 'see, it has holes'.

Suffice to say, we as knitters do weird crap with our needles all the time. There is more than one way to knit a sock, so I suppose there is more than one interpretation of what lace is. I mean are yoga socks socks? They don't have a toe or a heel. Ultimately I think it is up to the person to have their own definition. Stephen thinks it is lace, so it is. The competition organizers think it is cables, so they are. All in all, we just have to remember we are making art. Art that is oftentimes functional, but still art and that is hard to put labels on.

Definitely A.

A . . . mostly. I can understand C but I have a hard time defining what I'd allow (ex. drop stitch patterns might qualify but Clapotis is not a lace pattern). Given the all sniping about lace knitting vs knitted lace, I think I'd at least require yarn overs if I was making the rules.

C, not to say A.
Using large needle only creates "muslin" knitting in my opinion. Sorry dude. The sweater is lovely btw.

Def A or D, which would be another method of making holes, but it's now 4am and I can't think of one as I'm so tired, but have to finish these mitts....they're a gift.

Loose knitting isn't lace! It might be "lacy" but isn't lace.

And that's the truth ppppllllaatttt (ala Edith Ann! haha)

A. Lace knitting is definitely "A" in my book.

- Pam

A. And Stephen don't provoke the Borg.

Sorry Stephen. Lace for me is A.

Not thought much about it, thus not voting. I DO know many people who get a bit (or a lot) miffed if I say I'm knitting lace because they do not consider it real lace. And yes, I've met people who do it the French lace way with all those bobbins and ... it looks complicated. To them, that is the only way the term "lace" should be used and I'm being terrible calling my knitting lace. Then I struggle of what to call it - frilly? Not sure I like that term either...

It's so definitely A. Especially when the contest is about speed. Gotta be WORKING for those holes.

-A-
I'd be pretty bummed if I'd spent ages doing YOs and SSKs only to find my yardage was beaten by someone doing stocking stitch on giant needles!

C.

I'm with C, and A gets an honourable mention. I find that when I disagree with EZ it's time to pause and reflect, so I don't choose C lightly.

I have strong feelings on scribble lace that are not pertinent to this discussion. I also have strong feelings on what lace is and looks like and should be viewed as. (Did you know that a crazy scary number of people think anything that looks lacy was crocheted? Now, you can crochet some damn fine lace, but it doesn't look like knitted lace or lace knitting. Nor does it look like tatted lace, bobbin lace, or needle lace.)

Obviously this is a can of worms for me. I'll stop here. :)

He'd have no luck with weaving either... you can make "lacy"fabrics, that are sheer and thin but the term "lace" has a very clear and excliding definition and just plain weave that is see through is not it.
That said, some of the shawls I see promoted as "beginning lace" would not be "lace" by my definition either, I mean, just because you do the increases by yarn overs instead of something more solid, the rest is still massive. To be "lace lace" it would have to look lacy too, at least in my head.

Guess that makes it a C?

A.

I was going to go C, but even though I think that a tight definition for lace is a bit daft, y'know, there's no pattern in those holes. Holes in a pattern = lace. The cables don't come into it (because they're clearly not lace). Now this (http://www.stolenstitches.com/pattern-shop/laced-leaves/) is cables with lace.

At the end of the day, it's the yarn shop's competition, and their right to set the rules, even if you think their terminology is wrong. If they said that you had to knit lace with spaghetti, you'd just breeze on by, muttering "Crazy folks." So why not do likewise, and just let it go?

C. Sorry Steven...
Check out the Chinese Lace Sweater by Angela Hahn (http://knititude.com/patterns/chinese-lace-pullover) It's pretty too and would qualify for lace.
Good luck

A. Loose gauge is not lace; it's more like gauze.

Sorry Steve, Gotta go with C I'm afraid :-(

Whilst I think lace can be achieved by just using very large needles and possibly other stitches than YO and decrease, for example winding yarn twice to get dropped, elongated stitches, Really Now! That is not a lace pattern its cables!

I'm in agreement with Nathalie above I think.

Deffo a C, maybe even an A - mainly because of the scribble lace mention - scribble lace ain't lace as far as I'm concerned, which is tipping me toward A, even though I think the definition should be more flexible.

But, seriously - that's a cabled jumper!! I think lace should rely on something other than gauge to make it lace. It strikes me if that jumper was knitted with a nice aran weight yarn on appropriate needles, this argument would look a little daft.

Well, it's A, obviously - but ONLY if you are doing it on BOTH sides. No wimping out with girly rest rows in between. Oh, nooooo...

It'll be C for me too. Can see why one would want to knit that sweater though, it's cute. By the way, I don't even think the Oxford Canadian Dictionary supports Steve's case. It defines lace as "a fine and open fabric made by weaving thread IN PATTERNS", the knitting equivalent of that would not seem to be plain garter or plain stockinette in my understanding.

And thank you very much for the inset sleeve tutioral (referral to excellent and visual! manuals totally counts as excellent teaching in my book).

Sorry, guy. A gets my vote. Lace is lace not something you would like it to be.

A.
I'll give him that it looks 'lacy', but that doesn't make it lace. The way I see it, if it were lace the pattern of holes would show up if you knitted it with smaller needles aswell (albeit smaller holes), but if I understand this correctly, this pattern wouldn't look like lace if knitted on smaller needles, or with thicker yarn. (I'm sure others have already made this point, but with over 700 comments I'm not going to check!)

C...sorry Steve...

Gotta vote A. I'm a lace knitter and I love it. There is a technical aspect to knitting lace that you just HAVE to take into account when considering whether it is or isn't lace. Lace is technical, fiddly and not everyone's cup of tea. That sweater is a sheer, open guage cable knit sweater.

Oh, and "scribble lace" isn't lace either. That's just fancy stockinette.

Sorry Steve.

C. I would call that sweater airy rather than lace.

B -- in my view, knitting is like the Constitution -- it is a living artform and constantly evolving. I mean we are knitting with tree fiber, milk fiber and soy fiber. I bet none of our forebears could have foreseen that happening! So if holes happen on purpose, I would call it lace too.

A - that is SO NOT a lace pattern.

I go for C. Lovely sweater, but not lace in my book.

A. That jumper is lacy, but it isn't lace

I go for C. Sorry.
Nice sweater pattern though :)

B. If I saw the sweater hanging in a store, I would say "it's a lacy cable sweater".

C. I see his point with the pattern. I mean, it should be lace if you can see a girl's bra through it right? But it's still cables and NOT lace.

If you can see your bra, it is lace. I am sorry to hear you wear a bra, Steven, they suck, don't they?

A. That is a cabled sweater. Scribble lace? So not lace. An interesting technique, however.

I'm between A and C. Sorry Steven!

I think the YO and decrease may be too narrow, but I also think their needs to be some kind of pattern to the holes besides loose gauge. And the sweater if definitely "summery", but I'm not sure about lace.

Going for C. Big needles makes mesh maybe, or netting, but not lace.

Gotta go with A

Sorry Stephen I have to go with A.

My answer is A. I have empathy for Steven's ideas and notions about the space between which to me is where his decision-making for calling it lace is located, but it's not the space between that makes it lace for me — it's how I bend the yarn to get to the structure that contains the space. So, I'm working out that for me it is about stability and containment around the space. I really like his passion and perseverance in exploring this argument.

Steven, you may want a shot and a beer at this point, but I'm going to go with option A also. You can see through a lot of things but that doesn't make them "lace". You need some purposeful holes in your project to qualify. Sorry!

We're a tough group. I also go with A. Just knitting something really huge so it has a lot of spaces in it, is not lace. More power to you for wanting to knit, of course, but I have knitted a lot of real lace and so I think I'm entitled to be slightly picky here.

PS: Just saw an earlier comment and now remember that a competition sometimes has rules to fashion a more equal playing field. It's right: I'd be miffed if I'd done my yarnovers etc, only to find Steven beating me with giant needles and stocking stitch. At this point, it has to be either or for a contest. and I also like the idea of walking by the contest if it doesn't fit your parameters. no one's forcing anyone here.

C. Lovely sweater but it doesn't fit the definition.

A.

hole-y = m*ths
big needles = fast but not necessarily skilled or delicate
lace = artistry, patience and sometimes miserably slow

A. Definitely A. Lace is not the same as mesh. Want mesh? Buy a screen. Want lace, suck it up and find a real lace pattern and skinny string, dude.

I'm somewhere between A and C. Sorry Steven.

I'm going to have to go with A. The holes have to be created not just happen because the needles you are using are large. Anyone could knit a ton of stocking stitch with say laceweight yarn on 10mm needles, would that make it lace?

I've got go with C here. Sorry Steven.

Sorry Steve it's C and A. That isn't lace.

"Sheer" isn't the same thing as "lace." Sorry, Steven, but a sheer cabled sweater doesn't qualify as lace. It's pretty, though.

A

The sweater looks open, airy, maybe even translucent, but I still don't define it as 'lace.' Fishnet stockings aren't lace to me, either.

Oh my gosh!! That's my yarn shop! Well, I don't own it...I just love it!

I vote C...in general, I'm open to a wider definition, but for a specific contest, I think you have to be more rigid.

A. I do think they should have one more category - total knitting, crocheting yardage. Any type of project. Fat yard may knit up faster, but uses less yardage. Since it also costs more per yard, it could be a win, win for the store. ;-)

C. With many apologies from a hypercompetitive person who completely understands where Steven is coming from (theoretically, just not in actuality).

I'm afraid I vote A. There's a difference between "lace" and "lacy". I love to knit lace, but sometimes I want to do something quick and mindless, but lacy--then I use needles that are way too big, or use dropped stitch techniques to make an open, lacy fabric. But it's not lace. As for the Whisper Pullover, I would describe it as sheer, or mesh, but not lace.

I choose C. I think when you see lace, you know it. That sweater, while lovely, is not lace.

A with a strong leaning toward C.

And on a side note. First Natural Stitches gets mentioned in Sweater Quest. Now it's on the Yarn Harlot blog. Man, this shop is on fire. Woot for Pittsburgh knitting!

Ask Steven whether he thinks fishing nets are lace: stable holes deliberately made, no decreases. I vote for A.

D.
Personally I have no problem with the sweater, but them that makes the contest gets to make the rules.
Is the beer still cold?

A - with no apologies. Bigger needles and holey knitting does not by itself make 'lace'. That's just cheating to get yardage. Someone will think that those big old broomstick-sized plastic needles will make yardage like crazy, but I'll bet manipulating them will actually make the (w)hole thing slower.

D

Rules are rules, and if you don't like the rules you don't have to play the game.

It's the shop owner and contest awarder's perogative to make whatever rules she wishes and, so long as she is consistent in enforcing the rules consistently for everyone, nobody has a foothold to complain.

If he really feels strongly that the cabled sweater should be counted as lace, he should make his own contest which revolves around his definition of lace.

A - Sorry Steven.

Sorry Steven, I vote C. That's a cabled sweater no matter how big your needles are. It's even called "Whisper Cables" not lace something.

A, definitely. To call knitting on large needles or any knitting with holes lace diminishes the power and glory of true lace.

A, A and only A, sorry Steven.

That's my LYS and Steven is a friend, but I have to go with C. There's "lacy" (meaning sheer) and then there's "lace," and I think this sweater is an example of the former.

B. This should be fun, no? Stephen, I'm going to have a beer tonight, too.

C

I vote A, but I think there should be another category called mist, or something similar, for the translucent effect of knitting thin yarn on big needles.

This is looking a lot like a consensus, but I'm going to have to go with C as well. There may be other ways to create lace (like the infamous Clapotis with the dropped stitches), but that pullover isn't it.

A.

Nice sweater though, he should make it anyway.

C, Sorry Steven

C

Another vote for A - when I look at all the types of lace out there (tatting, bobbin lace, needle lace, knitted lace, crocheted lace) it's the precise placement of holes and solid parts to make a decorative design that makes it lace. Loosely knit is pretty, but I don't think it rises to the point of lace.

My two cents.

At its heart, "lace" is a textile chiefly distinguished by the deliberate placement of openings, eyelets or holes within the fabric.

How the holes are created is less important than the fact that the holes are a) there and b) deliberate. To limit ourselves to only allowing holes created by yo, k2tog limits the scope of what can be achieved in creating lace with knitting needles, and it also ignores the not-uncommon use of *double* yarn overs, as well as yarn overs that may not be accompanied immediately (or at all) by a corresponding single decrease. And holes that are the result of other maneuvers (such as lifted-thread increases). And on and on and on. That these techiques have not yet been widely exploited (give me a little while) doesn't make them illegitimate.

That said (and I'm sorry, Stephen, but you did write and ask) for the purposes of *this contest* I'm afraid I would have to side with the shop. That fabric is very open in nature, but the sweater is not a lace project. You want to compete in the lace category, man up and pick a shawl or something akin.

Also, Natural Stitches completely rocks and everyone should go there.

That all I have to say. Thank you and good night. Or is it morning?

Sorry, dude, but I've gotta vote C.

I have to side with A. Sorry Stephen...

C.

I say C. My students in my lunch time knitting club are constantly getting upset that they have holes in their scarves. I tell them "it's lace" and they're happy as larks and keep knitting.
salam wa sa'aadah Linda

Sorry Stephen, my vote is A.

I'm a C girl. :)

My choice is A. Lace is intentional, in my humble opinion. I have seen a lot of beginner knitters with holes in their projects but this certainly wasn't lace.

I vote A.

The term for cloth woven at too loose of a sett is sleazy.

Sorry dude, not only is it not lace, but it's sleazy.

A, with perhaps some sympathies toward C.

Sorry man. Having gauge issues is not the same thing as knitted lace.

(And seriously, "the YOs up the spine of a shawl aren't lace"? OK, sure, your argument can have that completely optional 0.5% of the garment. I'll be over here with the other 99.5% of a knitted lace shawl. This, kids, is what is known as "Trying too hard" or as my mom used to call it "Defending the indefensible.")

Steven, I wouldn't call that lace.
HOWEVER, I would argue that the current rule is a bit sexist.
I mean, honestly, at the end of it, the shop wants people to knit stuff they can USE, and I don't know if a single guy I know would wear a lace sweater.
Perhaps they could open the definition up a bit?

A - it maybe lacey, but it's not lace.

Usually I would say, do what you want, but serioiusly, I have to be a stickler with this go with A.

A. Dude, that sweater?? It's cables.

A. Dude, that sweater?? It's cables.

A, with C as my second choice. Think of all those crappy acrylic/nylon scarves people made 10 years ago on size 13 needles...holey, yes...lace, definitely not!

A. I think the contest rules are already loosened up enough by the fact that they let us knit things that include lace sections, even though they aren't totally lace.

With apologies to Steven, my vote is for A, but, as many others have mentioned, with a note on language. Lace is a technique- bobbin, knit, however its made, is DONE, not simply appearing because of gauge. A garment can appear lacy due to gauge, but that does not really mean that the artist has necessarily done something with their technique to achieve a lacy effect.

And...back to work.

Sorry Steve ~ I'm voting "C". Save the sweater for another time and find something lacy to make now. {question ~ would you consider granny squares to be lace because they have holes in them? Just asking}

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs, but really dude. That's a cabled sweater, not a scribble lace scarf and you're stretched too thin on this one. Try harder Steven, you've almost got me.

(e.g., my Clapotis is full of holes - chock full of 'em - and it's not lace.)

A, definitely A. Although I was really entertained this morning while drinking my coffee. Gotta handed to Steven, he sure is trying, but that pullover (while lovely and breezy) is still not lace.

For this contest: A.
The shop is having a contest; the shop has articulated the conditions and rules; you(sorry Stephen) have a choice to make. You can play by the rules that every other contestant has to follow. You can vote with your feet and choose not to join. You can put in place your own contest with rules you like better. You are NOT entitled to change the shop's rules for the current contest. Choose another pattern or choose another contest. It's that simple actually and no need for a huge debate.

Gotta go with A.
Sorry to say, but it is their ball and they get to play however they want, make up whatever rules. If the contest said we are counting only blue yarn, would we say, well he should be allowed to use green since that is from blue and yellow.

C. definitely C. with a slight lean to A. Although my first thought when looking at the pattern was REALLY Steven??? You think THAT'S lace???

My vote is for C.

Barbara, I'd say that granny squares would totally count as lace because the holes are deliberate and stable.

C. Nice sweater, but it's not lace.

Doesn't seem to be a very popular answer, but I have to go with B. Holes are holes, man. };-)

Sorry. Gotta go with C.

Sorry, mate. A.

Loose gauge is not lace. It is loose gauge. It can be attractive and useful and all of that, but it's still not lace.

Sorry, Stephen - I go with A. You've got to purposely make the holes and those holes have to be stable (i.e. locked into place and shape by their construction).

C. Sorry, dude.

I'm going with B. I think knitting should be fun and if he wants to knit this sweater and call it lace, let him.

Sorry Stephen - A. I am not a lace knitter, because I just can't get it down. I think I could make the cable knit sweater... Maybe we should ask the Panopticon, he is an exceptional lace knitter and should know lace from imitation lace? I hate to bring anyone down. :(

A with some C-like exceptions. My first knitting project (a scarf) ended up with a few very stable holes, which I can now see were created with a yarn over - can I count that as lace? (I'd say no to that since these holes were unintentional). Bigger needles used to create an open fabric does not count as lace in my opinion. That sweater, although beautiful, is not lace.

I'm going C. I would count other things such as intentionally dropped stitches as lace (think Clapotis and similar), but just knitting at a really open gauge isn't lace. Sorry.

I'm voting A....I could be persuaded to C, but the bottom line is that I don't look at the sweater pattern he chose and think "look at that lace work!" or "Wow, what a great lace pattern". I think, "Cute, lightweight cabled sweater".

A - Big knitting doesn't make it lace. Sorry dude.

A. I see it as being the different between something being "airy" vs "lacy". Lace is deliberate, stable holes. Airy is something like kidsilk haze being knit on US size 10 or 11 needles.

Gotta go with C on this one. Sorry Buddy.

erm, C I'm afraid - but/and I'm willing to hear more arguments/rationalization! I know - have your _own_ contest for those creative individuals who refuse to have their pegs be wedged into the wrong shaped hole! ha!! Take that you dratted conformists!!!

Sadly, in this case, A. I think for the sake of contest, having a more firm definition would be best. I'm thinking that if you just "knit big" to make a lace-like garment, that's not really as challenging at the traditional YO/dec method, so you'd have an unfair advantage.

That being said, I think I could call that sweater a "lacy cable sweater", but I've gotta say it's not really lace. Sorry. I feel bad, since I read his blog too, but I think sometimes you've gotta set some rules for fairness.

Oh, and can't wait to see your sweater.

Can you knit it out of sock yarn? Won't that count as "sock" in this instance? Or is that opening another can of worms?

If that's lace, then the shawl I just did using #19 (U.S.) needles is a lace project......but it's not, it's a simple garter stitch shawl with lot's of holes...mostly planned ones....so I'm going to have to go with A. Sorry Steven...keep looking.

I'm gonna go with A. Otherwise wouldn't patterns with drop stitches be called lace too?

I think A, with C having some merit. Dude, someone early said it best: Knit what YOU WANT TO KNIT.

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs, but really dude. That's a cabled sweater, not a scribble lace scarf and you're stretched too thin on this one. Try harder Steven, you've almost got me.

Sorry, Steven.

Steve, I'll buy you a beer at Knot Hysteria. You deserve it.

I'm going with A on this one. Really? Give it a rest!

And you'll probably still need it.

A.

Sorry, Stephen. The holes have to be stable.

I'm going with A. Sorry, but I don't think that loose knitting is enough to qualify as lace. A designer can call their pattern anything they want but it doesn't mean that it's technically true. Yes, that's picky, but, especially in the case of a contest, suck it up and follow the rules.

B! of course. (I think there's a lot of uptight lace knitters out there.)

While knitting with a loose gauge may result in a lacy fabric, it isn't lace. Sorry Steven, I'm voting A. I'm also voting C. What I see when I look at that sweater is cables, not holes. Good luck in the contest. I hope you find another pattern you love as much.

A, or maybe C. Sheer does not equal lace. Sorry, man.

Sorry dude- got to vote A- save that project for a sweater contest.

A. or C., but either way, I can't argue for Steven's project choice. Sally Melville has designed several projects that achieve overall, or sections of, translucency by using smallish yarn on biggish needles. Translucency is not the defining characteristic of lace: If it were, chiffon and organza fabrics would be "lace." Clearly they are not, right? Not a mistake anyone who knows anything about textiles would make--misidentifying chiffon for lace, because it's sheer?
However, if Steven wants to man-up, and figure out how to replace the sheer-because-loose sections of his chosen design with columns of YO-dec stitches, then he'd have cables & lace, and I'd say the contest adjudicators ought to at least consider allowing his entry.
"Lacy" doesn't mean the same thing as "lace," just as "creamy" doesn't mean the same thing as "cream."
Time for another beer for Steve?
;)

C

Definitely C - that's cables all the way

I vote A - knitting on big needles isn't lace.

C.

Lace-weight yarn knit stockinette on size 10s is not lace in the end.

However, I'd concede that the definition of lace knitting (or knitting lace, as some have distinguished between the two - Meg Swansen comes to mind, but I'd have to look it up) - that definition given of deliberately placing holes - or even restricting it moreso to yarn overs - seems like it could be, well, more open (so to speak :-).

I vote A. And I won't even bring up the difference between "lace knitting", and "knitted lace." Well, I guess I did bring it up--but I won't torture the guy by going into it.

A

Sorry, dude!

I going with A...Rules are rules and lace is lace...

I vote A. I agree with previous posters that knitting on large needles is just not lace. Sorry Steven.

I'm going to say C because I'm allowing for the fact there are probably situations I haven't considered, but in my heart I believe A. Sorry, dude! Loose knitting =/= lace!

Most Definitely it's choice A. Sorry Steve

Not lace. I could easily knit that without sobbing, tearing my hair out, resorting to chemical comforts, or gibbering like an idiot. Definitely not lace.

I go for A as well. I looked at the sweater and while it may appear to be *lacy* between the cables, I would not consider it lace. Steve can argue the face, but since it doesnt come under the rules of the store contest, he needs to pick a different project.

sorry Steve.

C w/lean into A. What Kristen E said and what NancyG said. There are lots of contests, and he should pick one with rules that fit his preference.

Sorry Steve...I am in with those voting C.

I'm going to have to go with C

I vote C.
Loving the above discussions. Thanks for the forum.

Steven, So sorry, Pal....but, lovely as it is, it just ain't lace! I vote A - I almost went for C, - I was feeling a little "soft" cuz I like the sweater. In my heart of hearts though, knitting on big needles may make a holey fabric, but not a lacey one. Either pick another pattern, or give up the competitive streak and knit what you want because you want to - not to be the winner! Keep us posted!

A. Definitely A. There's knitted lace, which I think is the one with yarnovers and decreases on both front and back, and lace knitting, which has the 'action' on the knit side followed by a purl row. I think. I may have gotten that backwards. But it seems pretty clear to me that what Stephen is talking about is manipulating gauge for an effect, and definitely not 'knitting lace'.

sorry Steven but it's got to be A! A cabled jumper just isn't lace

Going with A. The way I see it- lace is an organized creation of peek-a-boo stitches and spaces!

A - Sorry Steven, but lace is lace and cables are cables, regardless of needles size.

What if the contest were to knit 10,000 yds of lace-weight yarn in a lace pattern as you can on size 2 needles, but I decided I could knit garter stitch on size 19 needles. Who do you think would finish first?

That sweater is beautiful though. Maybe you found a summer project without the yarn shop's challenge.

Sorry Steven...A for me as well. Lace is a planned bit of knitting with a pattern for y/o and dec. Big ribbing on big needles is just that, ribbing.

A--I've just started my first lace project and, I assure you, it is nothing like the blanket I made for my cousin on those Lion size 50 needles. One could (possibly) describe the sweater as "lacy," i.e. with a similar weight, drape, and holiness to lace (although given the cables I doubt it), but lace is intentional, planned holes.

A
The cable pattern is really nice....but it isn't lace.

A- the sweater is beautiful but not lace knitting in my book

A, definately! Poor Stephen, did he even get 1 vote?
By the way, I love Natural Stitches and I am part of this contest. It is the best LYS in Pittsburgh!

A - Sheer fabric created by using a larger guage than normal for a yarn is not lace.

Sorry Steven , but really that is not lace , i have to go with A.

Going with C for the vote. I do think as a whole A is a bit too strict a definition & I think lace happens quite often without strict rules, but I also think it takes more than large needles to make lace. I guess it's just one of those "I'll know it when I see it" things, lol.

A or C. I think if the cables were present as well as yarnover stuff, then I would count it as lace, but I think that just knitting loosely is not so much lace.

The sweater is fab though.

Totally B! Steven, I got your back. :o)

My vote is: A.

Sorry. I vote A.

A. And thanks to Meg and Chelsea for some great support arguments (Carob/chocolatey and grape juice/wine).

A. I am not wavered. Lace is when you make holes on purpose! Not really really loose stockinette or garter stitch. Sorry, Steven, i hope we can still get along.

A. Suck it up, dude. Even the name of the sweater has "cable" and not "lace" in it.

C it is

I'm sorry, but C. In the knitting reality which we live in at this moment, lacy does not equal lace. As the rules were created in that definition of reality, I think you're screwed. I invite you to campaign to change the world's definition, though.

A

definitely a. if you go back to fabric definitions to remain impartial the type of fabric yu're desribing is a SHEER fabric which is frequently seen through but has no stable holes which is the definition for LACE.

A. Even loose cables do not equal lace.

I have to go with A, but I'm sure Steven could knit lace and still be a contender! Go Steven!!!

A

Sorry Steven, gotta go with A. Suppose you knit an afghan with honkin' huge needles that left gaps all over the place. That's not lace! That's a cabled sweater, dude!

I too vote for A.

A.

Lace, to me, is holes that are distinct from the surrounding fabric.

A. knitting lace is a skill, and that is the point of the contest? Kinda seems like cheating to try to make lace without actually knitting lace.

Sorry, but I have to go with C, Steven. It is definitely just a cable sweater. It is a great sweater though.

A. Big needles + thin yarn = lacy, not lace. Lace has deliberate holes (and, in my case, usually some that weren't).

Sorry Steven, A.

Steven, get the beer, hon. Say the word "Lace" -- --let it hiss off your tongue. Say it again -- Laaaaay-sssssssssss -- it almost whispers itself.

Now, as was suggested and I very strongly agree, say CABLE. Come on, say it . . Kaaaaay-bull. There's NO WAY it whispers. As George Carlin called it -- the sound is definitely a bilabial fricative. Harsh, coarse, hard . . .

That sweater you want to make does NOT whisper -- I don't care what it's called. It's straight up KAAAAAAY-BULL . . .

I'm not mad at you Steven, but Laaaaay-ssss whispers and is delicate -- Kaaaay-bull goes with jeans . . . Love ya' man . . .

Sorry Steve, I'm going with A. But scribble lace... Oh MY!!!

A.

Otherwise the extremely unstable vest I just finished (it is on time out until I can unravel it and do something else with it) would qualify because the fabric is so loose it is translucent.

And it ain't lace. It's stockinette. I don't want to talk about it any more. I need to go lie down.

C---
Ask Veronik what she thinks. Looking at picture it "looks" lacy to me--- very fine. And holes are created at the side of the twists of each cable... I could buy that as an "intentional" hole. They exist in all cabled work, just usually the yarn is aran weight and they are hidden.

My vote is C. with a strong leaning towards A.

But like you said, it is tne rules of the competition that matter, not what we think.

Sorry Steven.

I cast my vote for A earlier, but I have a question about the contest now. Several people have commented about crocheting taking more yarn than knitting, true, but I'm wondering how they can compete directly anyway. I can see accepting them both into the contest but in separate catagories, but judging them against each other? They are both beautiful but are made completely differently. Their defination of knitted lace doesn't apply to crochet. They might as well add in bobbin lace or Battenburg lace. You could judge them together as just lace on technique and beauty but not on length of thread or by defining how "lace" is made. How are they managing this?

A - without a doubt. Big needle knitting is not lace. And I would also disagree on the series if buttonholes, as well as the yarnovers in the spine of a shawl. Just because an increase is a yarn over, doen't make it lace.

Yes my opinions on it are rigid. But if it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing. I've done the loose knitting on big needles as well as the Lace Knitting. The finished project for Lace Knitting is much more satisfying.

Me: I vote for A. Sorry, Steven ;) IMHO lace has to be both stable and deliberate.

C - for the reasons Ellen so eloquently gave.

ETA: noticed this is a few comments, so here goes another opinion...

"Lacey Looking" is not Lace.

No not lace. Nice cables though. C with alot of A.

C for sure.

Sorry Steven, I'll have to pick A. Lace is created on purpose, not just by doing it 'big'

And Steph - huge kudos for actually counting these votes! hope you have helpers! And please report - interested in totals... think A is winning unfortunately for Steven.

Steve - lace is made on a pillow with fine thread, using bobbins. Knitted lace is the stuff they make in Shetland - fine yarn, fine needles. Holes - yarn overs, and decreases and increases to make a very definite pattern. Lace is NOT just a holey fabric - otherwise, five year olds could knit it, rather than skilled knitters. If you want to knit 'holey' fabric on big needles, go right ahead, and have fun - just don;t call it lace.

A. Gotta be A. Lace is on purpose, and lace has some specific techniques. Sorry, Steve.

Its C for me!

C... I'm addicted to all sorts of needle arts, so I make lace in a lot of different ways, from knitting to embroidery, all creating stable holes, but a cabled sweater in a really large gauge? Doesn't quite qualify as lace in my book, even with my relaxed standards. Sorry Steven! Pick yourself up and move on. :-)

A - @Steven, I am sure you didn't mean to dis our patron Saint EZ. Right? (insert stinkeye).

Steven, it pains me to say this dude but I gotta vote A.

Thing is, I've looked at your blog. You're a talented guy and I think you can do better than that sweater. Suck it up and knit some real, live, kick ass lace as defined by the contest rules. In doing so, you'll gain something much more valuable than a $50 gift certificate: pride in the beauty you created, self-respect because you put on your big boy pants and played by the rules (regardless of what everyone else did), and the satisfaction of knowing that knitters everywhere will be in awe because you took an honest-to-gawd lace pattern and knit the hell out of it.

I know you can do it! Now go forth and knit LACE!

A. Definitely A.

A, deliberate action required

I think A. Especially as it's a competition - it is much more time consuming to knit in yarn overs and decreases than just to use massive needles, so I gotta go with A. Sorry Steven. What would be supremely awesome would be if you created your own pattern in the same style as the cable sweater but with "proper" lace incorporated into it.

I'm going for C but with heavy leanings to A.

I'm a crappy knitter sometimes, and by the definition that holes = lace, that would make me an expert lace knitter! Holes are holes. But I think the intention counts too. If you are meaning to make the holes, then it counts. If you make holes accidentally or without a deliberate action, they are still holes, but not so much with the lace.

But for myself, when I knit little yarn on big needles, I call it lace-esque because I really suck at the deliberate thing!

C. Sorry, Steven. I've been knitting for 50 years and know lace when I see it. I see a cable sweater.

Have to admit, I am a bit surprised at how popular this thread is.

I agree with A, but I love the sweater, Steve, and would go ahead and knit it.

Keep track of your knitting yardage this summer. At the end, you can compare your accomplishment with the official winners. Show off to the judges, if you want. Perhaps they'll be convinced to have a more inclusive knitting contest in the future (most yardage, period, for example).

I'm voting C, but I lean towards A. Elizabeth Zimmerman's opinion has weight, damn it, and not just laceweight!

Can we get a link to Steven's blog?

To commenter suggesting we cut Steven slack for gender reasons--no way. Knitting lace is gender-neutral. The shop contest doesn't need handicapping because he's a man. As far as the "it-is-*too*-lace!" growling--eh. Dude, there's the spirit of a law, and there's the letter. Trying to get around the spirit of what the contest is, by having fits over what the letter of lace is, isn't cool.

I have to go with A.

I think if Steven doesn't like the rules, he should be perfectly happy to host his own competition using his own rules.

C

A. So many great reasons already given....

Put another in the "A" column!

Sorry, Steven, but I have to go with A. And yes, I am a lace knitter. :)

I vote A. (And am tickled to find my LYS mentioned here! Natural Stitches is the best!)

Lace takes longer to knit than just plain knitting with big needles due to the time spent increasing and decreasing and the potentially complex patterns to follow. The contest wouldn't be fair if someone was kntting an elaborate (real lace) shawl and someone else was doing plain garter stitch on size 11 needles.

I would have to say A and as someone who loves lace, pattern on both front and back to keep it interesting!

B. If I had seen this sweater without knowing the argument surrounding it, I would have said "Ooh, lace AND cables -- how pretty!"

I have to say A -- sorry! Lace, according to everything I've read and my ex-boyfriend's sainted grandmere, is knit on tiny needles using even tinier yarn and involves the planned use of yarn-overs to create an artistic pattern.

But judging by what I've seen on your blog, you shouldn't have any trouble doing lace, and that pullover. That is some seriously impressive knitting!

I have to vote "A". Lace is deliberately made, it doesn't just happen.

I'm going to have to go with C. It's a nice sweater, but I wouldn't consider it lace.

I laughed out loud with this discussion! My gran would have said "are you nuts? Lace is what I make with a tatting shuttle!" Anyway- I like Steven's definition because I choose to say I make lace all the time (oh, you mean those are unintentional holes?!) Wouldn't it be nice if this were the only thing we had to truly be worried about!

C - sorry Steve!

Holes=Lace? Would it follow then that swiss cheese is "lace cheese", a tunnel through a mountain "landscape lace"? How about mouth and nostrils = "face lace"?

Its Option A.!

I have to go with C, too. Cute sweater but definitely seems more 'cabley' than 'lacey'. Sorry.

A- sorry!

sorry dude. A.

A. Definitely A.

I have to pick A. Knitting with big needles is mesh, not lace.

A, with a side of C. sorry, stephen.

A, very sexy sweater but not lace.

C.
That's a summer weight cable sweater. I'm all for experimentation in knitting, but dude.

A. Sorry Stephen. Natural Stitches is my favorite yarn shop, and I've gotten hooked on knitting socks. BUT there's no way I could find time to have the output to win. I do plan to sign up, though! Summer of socks and lace--and knitting anything else yor want but don't get credit for!

C. Totally and completely. Beautiful sweater, tho.

A, with some leaning toward C--would like to see something less rip it out, drink more wine frustrating than yarnovers...

Sorry Steven, I gotta go with A on this one. Lace knitting implies the deliberate creation of holes through a particular technique. Knitting really, REALLY loose doesn't make it lace.

Wow am I the only person to pick B? I think if you're getting holes deliberately, then it's lace. That sweater looks like lace to me. Maybe this is my "before I was a knitter" brain speaking, but I'm hardly a beginner. I've been knitting for 3 years and I've knitted everyone's A definition of lace before. I guess I don't see the distinction between lace and lacy. I think any muggle on the street would call that sweater "lace."

If it doesn't have holes created via yarn-overs or similar techniques, it's not lace. A.

C leaning to A. Big stockinette holes are lacy, not really lace, any more than a vegie burger is a hamburger. It's only appears to be a hamburger at a passing glance, but on closer inspection, not the same thing.Tastes good (looks good), but not the same.

I'd have to go with B. That's my initial reaction (and I think the cables offset the lace nicely, which makes me more inclined to pick B), although scrolling through the comments made me re-think that decision. But ultimately, definitely B.

A, but leaning toward C!

I'm with the B crowd, cables and lace = a lace pattern.

A Knitting with large needles is not the same as YO and decreases, those are more work, or fun!

I vote for A.

Have to vote A. Fabrics gnawed by cats, mice, or moth larvae, while sometimes lacy, are not lace.

Cheers, Karen

A.
Steven is obviously choosing big needles to suck up lots of yardage for the challenge. Really thin material does not equal lace.

C. Loose gauge means it's a mesh, and there's an awful lot of athletes out there who would quite probably take offense to being told they are wearing lace uniforms...

I'm voting for B. I checked it out and that sweater is "lacy". I think there is room in the word "lace" for a looser interpretation. After all argument A is full of holes.

Definitely A. Loose knitting is just that - loose knitting and not lace. A new knitter who has not conquered the tension aspect of knitting is not knitting lace. Likewise an experienced knitter knitting loosely is not knitting lace.

Being the queen of justifying what I want to do, I give Stephen kudos for a royal try. But I have to go with A or C. In saying that, there was a Vogue Knitting cover about 10 years ago that showed a garment knitted in lace weight with huge needles to make a sort of netting and then other weights of yarn were used throughout as a sort of textured contrast. It's always fascinated me and it does look kind of lacy but the choosen sweater really is just a cabled sweater. Sorry, brother.

C. I'm sorry, Stephen. You sound like a nice guy and a great knitter, but there are quite clearly cables. I know cables can be mixed with lace, but there's nary a yarn over in sight.

I pick A

C. Sorry Stephen.

Hate to go with the crowd, but cables aren't lace. So my vote is A or possibly C. Actually, it will probably take you longer to make the cable one, especially if you are using a cable needle, but it still isn't lace. Go find another pattern or join another KAL! Sorry to burst your bubble.

C!! "Lace" also has an understood implication that it's tricky and requires concentration--that you can't just whip it up while you're watching the Simpsons! Lace patterns, in my experience, require many post-its, and few interruptions. It's its own special category which demands respect.

A--just the way it is.

C - I don't quite agree that it HAS to be yarn overs to creat lace, maybe there are other ways of doing it, but that sweater pattern is not a lace sweater either... even if it is see through inbetween the cables.

A, for the purposes of this poll. I think that if Steven (or a friend) wanted to wear it around and call it lace or lacy, that's a-ok by me. But if this is a competition, and he's up against people knitting what is traditionally thought of as lace, then hell no it doesn't count. Competition rules are necessarily more rigidly defined than everyday rules.

C. This also brought to mind a couple of Sally Melville's sweaters in The Knitting Experience: Book 1 (Where's the Opaque, and Caddy's Sweater) in which a sheer fabric is achieved by using over-large needles. The key word in the description was "sheer." If the L word had been used there would have been a precedent and Steven would get a B from me.

A. Sorry, Stephen.

well, tattered knickers have holes in them. Poor fabric choices, like American football jerseys, with enormous holes, likewise make knickers with holes in them. But, for a Friday night, I've gotta say "victoria's secret lacy naughty bits" are what get noticed as pretty by dear s. o.

So, from where I'm standing, lace is big yarn overs with decreases, and scribble lace is describing an impression of a result, not a technique. Like, all the fashion pages saying "knit berets" when it is obviously a crocheted cap, to those who know. Or, say, calling any twill pants a pair of jeans, if it's got a back yoke and top-stitching, rather than saying "jeans are made of denim- these are "jeans style" pants." Or, say, calling rachelle knit a knit, when it's a machine stitched almost felt thing. ( You know, those odd seventies curtains where they weren't knit or woven- the slubby nylon was stitched with smooth nylon?)

ari

C. with overtones of A. from here in the middle of a Haapsalu shawl---thanks for this challenge, even though thinking tends to make my brain hurt these days!

All apologies to Steven, but I choose A. Or possibly C--I mean, potentially someone could use something like dropped stitches to create a lacy effect.

I'm with the "A with a side of C" crowd.

I gotta go with A.. Lace is impossible and big knitting is... not.

Poor Stephen. What a lot of comments!

A. Absolutely A. Seriously, if we called knitting on big needles and small yarn "lace" then we'd have to consider everything crappy I knit my first year as lace and it's not - it was just bad form.

Which is not to say that big needles and small yarn isn't great - it's just another technique that needs its own special name. What should we call it? AC knitting?

sorry kid but i have to vote A. big needles doesn't equal lace.

I find myself somewhere between C and D.

I'm going to redefine things, for sake of explaining how I'm thinking about it.

"Lace" is something open and airy and full of holes.

"Knitting lace" is something where one intentionally places holes in stitching (such as by yarn overs, not simply by large needles) so that the holes create a pattern.

So yes, I'd call the pattern Steven likes lace, but I'd also say it's not knitting lace. The contest is for knitting lace (or crocheting, but we were discussing yo's which is knitting), rather than just creating garments which happen to be lace.

Apparently other people would just call it lacey, but I'm generous with lace. Then again, I don't consider the scarf I made my sister which has a patter with yo's to be a lace scarf, so I'm a bit odd with my definitions, it seems.

C. If that hadn't been a choice, I'd have gone with A.

Hesitantly, B

I was more inclined to A, (I'd think of it as sheer fabric rather than lace) but in the end, consulting my Shorter Oxford:

"A delicate ornamental openwork fabric made by twisting, looping, or knotting threads by hand or machine".

Really though, it hinges on defining 'ornamental' which makes this even more complicated. I'd still say A, but you could make a good argument for most anything being ornamental if it pleases, and the sheer sections are a lovely contrast to the cables.

I'm sorry Steven, I have to go with C. I started lace patterns a year ago, and no, if you don't deliberately put a hole in it, it's not lace!

Sorry, Steven, it's a C.
I do love the chocolatey vs chocolate analogy. Very clever.
Crack open a cold one, dude and start looking. I am sure that if you are truly interested in competing then you would be interested in keeping to the rules posted by the person(s)who initiated the contest. No rules would mean no contest. The fun is working creatively within parameters set, or that's what I think anyhoo.

A totally, with bits of C too. Sorry, Steven.

Something Else. Step back a bit and ask yourself: why subject your knitting enjoyment to anyone else's restrictive rules? Make what you want and feel smug about your lovely FO.

A for me.

I have to say A.

Regardless of definitions, wouldn't knitting lace by simply using really big needles be cheating in this contest? Because you can be damned sure I can knit many, many more yards of garter stitch in an hour than I can knit of a "lace" pattern, even a simple lace pattern. (Yes, I understand the cabled pattern isn't simple garter stitch, but really, where do you draw the line?)

Sorry, but having knit both lace shawls and cabled sweaters I have to go with A on this one.

A.

Big holes may look lacey, but it isn't lace. :)
Can still be pretty though.

I vote for A with a close leaning for C. Sorry Steve.

A. yeah, no lace in that pattern. sorry, man.

C, the holes need to be more than loose knitting.

a. sorry steven.

A. Sorry bud.

Gotta go with A, sorry Steven.

That cable sweater is very pretty but those holes? that's gauge, not lace.

I'm back. It's THAT Steven? Then you *have* knit lace - you gave it away last month, remember? It took three of you and a party to block it - which is a helluvan idea - I wanted to win it, and when I didn't I decided to make my own. A. You know it.

A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

Sorry, but that sweater is definitely not lace.

Gotta be A. Thin yarn knit on big needles may "look lacey", or "be lace-like", but its NOT lace.

I go for C. I designed a shawl for Fiesta Yarns I called Airy Shawl, which isn't lace but has holes, made by casting off in one row and casting on right above that in another row. Holes, yes - lace, no.

I LOVE knitting holes, it cracks me up. But it's not always lace. Look at Hoxbro's modular sort of holes - definitely not lace.

But why argue, just knit what you love and call it anything you want.

Sorry Steven, I have to vote for A....just 'cause you create a loose guage, that's not lace.

Well, we have batted this question around the shop (yes, THE shop) for a few days. Steven actually brought it up on Saturday (or was it Friday?) and we discussed essentially the same things that Stephanie is talking about -- Scribble Lace, shawls with holes at the spine, what constitutes lace in crochet (granny squares, for example -- which have large holes but aren’t lacy). We think we’re pretty loose with our definitions here, and as Sarah L. pointed out in a comment above, we count things that have lace panels, and that it doesn’t have to be an entire shawl (or piece of lace knitting) to count in the contest.

I know he’ll knit the sweater anyway; I think he’s got a wicked case of startitis. He wanted the sweater to count against his yardage for the contest is the whole thing, and unfortunately, the consensus -- and the ruling from the owner -- has been that while it is a lovely piece of knitting, it isn’t going to be able to count.

I will say that it has been entertaining reading the many comments (even the ones that are a little on the mean side), and seeing what others around the world think.

C and I'm with Gretchen: gauge is not lace. People (like me) who don't like rules should just stay away from contests with rules and just have fun making what they want to make.

A...Sorry, Steven, your theory is full of 'holes'. You can call your garment whatever you want to call it, but in the end, lace is more technical than just using big needles.

I was going to say A, but then I took a second and looked at the pattern and I have to say that to me lace is about the fabric created - the openness of the work. Yes, there are cables in this sweater which tends to imply solid fabric, but there are so many intentional holes that the sweater is basically see through. The fabric is light, breathable, delicate in appearance - I don't know. I would call it a lacy sweater, even though it lacks a traditional lace pattern panel.

Much as I feel for Steven, I vote A. It does seem like knitting with laceweight, even if it's not lace, should count for SOMETHING, but alas... it's not lace.

Gotta go with A. Lace is deliberate and has specific techniques. Bigger needles than what would normally correspond to the yarn gauge *may* be an element of lace, but it is only one factor among many. No yarn overs? Not lace.

A.

I do add this suggestion, although with nearly a thousand people weighing in (which, no, I have not read their replies) could have already been made: perhaps we may use the term "lacy" for fabric made to be holey in the absence of deliberately induced holes as per E.Z.

The answer is A. While all knitting is knitting, lace knitting requires a purposefully made hole, and a corresponding decrease somewhere in the pattern, or a hole used as an increase repeatedly. This is more or less standard, and if it were as easy as loose gauge, half my garter stitch swatches would count. I understand that to the non knitter that sweater appears lacy, and it is pretty, but Steven, you know that the definition of the rules exclude the sweater, and I empathize with your plight. But, it makes more sense to figure out how they will count crochet as lace- it doesn't use a corresponding decrease for so many patterns, especially doilies and such that use fine yarn or thread and grow in size with each round.

I have to say A. I agree with others that loose knitting does not make it lace.

C

all the way.

A!!!

A. Sorry, but that's not lace.....

I have to go with A. Sorry Dude, but that is the way it is.

A. Lace is all about the yarn overs. Clapotis is a great pattern; not lace though. Ditto big needles, skinny yarn patterns, not lace.

Unapologetically, A. Sorry dude.

A, leaning a bit toward C... In an untraditional sense could Clapotis be considered a lace scarf? I'd venture the answer is Yes to a Muggle and No to a Purist. As for the sweater in question, I'd say no. Sorry Steve!

A. Definitely A. Sorry Steven.

I am voting for C. But leaning towards A. Sorry, Steven.

A. I just got the St. Denis magazine and spent several minutes reading the pattern and admiring the sweater. I don't feel that knitting with big needles makes a pattern lace and I don't think this is a lace sweater. Sorry. Janine

I vote for C, but have to add that knitting, like virtue, is its own reward and shouldn't need some sort of prize at the end.

A. For sure. I say that because I don't think that the unique joy that I get out of knitting lace would be achieved by just knitting with big needles. There is an accomplishment in knitting lace because the pattern is complicated. And it's an exact process, much different than using big needles and winding up with something that purposely does not yield an exact result.

C

I'm going with A, with leanings towards C. Using big needles isn't creating lace. And just because something is holey, doesn't make it lacey. Sorry, Steven. I do feel for you...

So will you wait for 1000 comments, or just have Steven tally the vote. (I'm #995)

I'm voting A. Sorry, Steven. Big needles make loose fabric, not lace.

I'd say C to be nice, but kind leaning towards A. I think the sweater is "lacey" as in loose, open knitting, but that doesn't make it "lace".

A. Otherwise all my early efforts were in fact lace. Sorry...

I just checked Stephen's blog. (You can find it by clicking on the underlined Stephen A near the beginning of Stephanie's blog entry).

He has knitted a Girasole. He knows what lace it. (He also said that he has contacted another famous knitter about this question, which is obviously extremely important to him).

But it's still not lace.

A, and unlike the nice folks here, I'm not saying I'm sorry.

societies president extinctions running issue impact beginning

Wow, 1,000 comments and counting! We are nothing if not an opinionated Blog.

Sorry, Steven. Any way you define it, a cabled sweater just isn't lace. I would also argue that scribble lace, charming as it is, isn't lace either. I'm with the "deliberate hole" group, I'm afraid.

B is true, holes are holes no matter how you achieve them. C has a valid point, the pattern is for a cabled sweater but it is done with the goal being a lace type pullover NOT a warm winter garment. This particular pattern is 'lace' by function if not by the popular definition.

C....but on the A side of C.

Sorry Steve, gotta go with A

Not that you probably care at this point, but I'm going with A. I agree that lace can involve a yarn over without a decrease (or, if you're starting at the wide end of the shawl, a decrease without a yarn over), but holes against a background of nonholes, or maybe smaller holes, are the sine qua non of lace. (Please say I am the first to use Latin in my argument, although at comment 1002 I doubt it.)

Both the holes and the nonholes are essential. It's arguable that if you're knitting very loosely you're deliberately creating and placing holes, one per stitch -- and there are openwork patterns that involve the use of needles of wildly different sizes on different rows -- but I wouldn't call that lace. What is darkness without light, yin without yang, holes without the more solid fabric around them?

D. It has always been my understanding that the true definition of lace is rather strict in that lace must consist of a pattern that is created on BOTH sides of the piece, i.e., not "Purl all WS rows." Not that this is by any means the popular definition of lace, which for me is "holes deliberately placed at regular intervals to create a purposeful pattern." However, garter stitch with fingering-weight yarn on size 13 needles ain't lace, just loose. Congrats to Stephen for choosing the Girasole. And yes, the crocheters will beat the pants off of knitters everytime when it comes to eating yardage. Just another reason to knit instead.

C. I think there is a pretty big difference between something that is, in fact lace and something that is lacey. I don't know what that something is exactly, but in my opinion, that sweater doesn't qualify as lace.

Sorry, Steve, A with a leaning to C

My instant-run-off vote is A, then C. (sorry!)

A. Your sweater has "lacey" insertions, but it's not a piece of lace.

Sorry, Steven the answer is obviously A, loosy-goosy gauge is not lace.

B- if it looks like lace and can be mistaken for lace, why not call it what it is?

Sorry Dude - but I got to go with A. EZ is the queen of all knitting and what she says, goes.

A, sorry!

A is my vote. The sweater is gorgeous but definitely not lace. It's very sheer but so is the peasant blouse I made from Teva Durham's pattern. Also, the jump in the number of people adding this pattern to their queue on Ravelry in the past couple of days is awe inspiring.

Have another beer, Steven. It's A. A fishing net has BIG holes but it's not lace. For those of you who have not lived in fishing village those nets used to be knit.

Oh Steve A it pains me to say my vote is "C". That sur eis a pretty sweater. Make it anyway...

C.

C. Sorry, dude, that ain't lace by even my stretchiest definition.

Sorry Steve, my vote is A. However, I do think you may have a real knack for the type of thinking that it takes to fight the government on a tax audit.

I choose A all the way.
There may be some finished items that look "lacey" due to using larger needles/gauge, but the pattern you've chosen would not even fit that definition.

I vote for A (judging from the photo of the sweater).

Sorry, it's A. Loose only, not lace

A. Most definitely so. Sorry Steven.

I'm afraid it's A. I considered B a lot longer than I thought I would, but no, it's A for sure.

I'd go with A-I think real lace knitting means deliberately placing holes in a pattern. Sorry, Steve

Honestly, I think I'd go with B. I mean, the spirit of the competition (socks and lace in the summer) seems to be "knitting projects that you can tolerate knitting in the summer," and if that sweater is open and gauzy enough that he can have it on his lap and knit o it during the summer, then fine.

A. Just cause you want it to be lace, doesn't make it so.

I'm all for being liberal and open about things, but that lovely sweater is not lace. Never considered my Clapotis a lace scarf, even with intentional holes. I have to vote "A".

A

Sorry Steve,
but as a longtime and passionate lace knitter I would have to say " A ".

A. I do think lace is something you do, not just something that happens. Fine yarn on big needles is "lacey" but not technical "lace".

You could knit two strips and twist them together to make a cable in your knitting, but I don't think you could make the case that you are doing cabled knitting by so doing.

A

Wow, that's an unbelievable number of votes to tally. However, if you ever get this far, this lazy knitter votes...wait for it...firm B...all the way.

D
Just glancing at the sweater...not looking at how it is knit...it is a cable and lace sweater. How you make that lace and if it qualifies for the stores rules for ratio of lace in the project, I don't know.
I really am baffled by how many people are against Steve! I see his argument...if it smells like lace, tastes like lace and looks like lace, then it's lace to me!

A. Lacey does not mean lace. The word "cable" should be a dead giveaway. Sorry, Dude.

A - really, it IS A. I am gobsmacked at the number of responses/votes in what? under 3 hours!

C, leaning towards A. Did you crack that beer yet, Steven?

And, Harlot, I'd like to hear your opinion--I'm not totally sure what you think (which means it was a well-written post ... or else I didn't read carefully enough).

A--I feel strongly about this one.

C

I have to vote for "C" here. Sorry, dude!

I'm voting A on this one!

Have to go with 'A' with 'C' a close second. Have another beer, Steve.

C. Definitely C. Sorry Steven, but that's a cabled sweater. Yeah it's done in light-weight yarn with a loose guage but it is what it is. I'm just finishing my second lace shawl in a row; many YO, K2tog, SSK and or S1K2PSSO all over the place. Now lace can also be done with a hook. My Nana made the most incredible lace table cloths with a bunch of thread and a teeny tiny hook. That is also lace.

A. Sorry. Nice sweater, but it's cabled.

C. definitely. i think it's a gorgeous lacy sweater, but not lace. i do think that there are definitely other ways to make lace then YOs, and i think that YOs aren't always lace at all.

My vote is "A." You could also say that counting is a requisite for lace, but that takes into another contest altogether. Nice try, Steven. You perhaps have yet to fully appreciate the joy and frustration of lace -- now's an opportunity! By all means use a lifeline, and, hey, enjoy!!

I vote C.

I have to say A, though I lean toward C a bit.

A. While B would create a lace-y look, it's not lace. Just loose knitting.

oh, i would have serious qualms about entering or running a contest like that tho. someone could knit YO, k2tog across every row. that's lace. by any definition, for yards and yards and yards. and would get to compete with a huge involved project. seems like the contest is likely to run into issues, completely aside from whether or not a lacy cable sweater qualifies.

c.

I thought about going with C, but finally decided that I really think A.

C leaning towards A. I give him credit for thinking outside the box.

Sorry. I have to go with A. I just struggled through a lace sweater that took me 9 months to knit. I probably could have cut that down significantly by simply knitting on huge needles, but I really wouldn't consider that lace.

Definitely C, but I believe A is true also.

A.

My vote is for A.

Gotta be B for me!

Nice try, but those are definitely cables, C.

D. That's lace alright, but why make life difficult for the contest organizers by challenging their definition? Sometimes it's better to be quiet than to be right, don't you think?

A. There is a difference between lace and lacy.
Any stitch on BIG needles creating large spaces
between stitches is lacy, not lace. Lace is a
structure not just holes. Holes are not just large
spaces between and amoungst stitches. Whilst I
would hesitate to argue with Debbie New who is
brilliant, I do not consider "scribble lace" lace.
Again it is lacy, but rather fun to knit!

I vote for A. (and I would really like to see the totals for each choice when all is said and done!)

Here's a B for Stephan! Holes are holes - let's expand lace horizons so that the timid will take the lace-plunge as well.

I go with C, sorry Stephan!

Gotta go with A on this one. Altho, I do believe the only opinion that matters has to be the contest organizers. Their contest = their rules!

No question about it. A.

A. Final answer. The contest sponsor defined their terms and all who enter do so with implicit acceptance of the terms. Get over yourself Stephan and knit what you like just don't expect to be granted a prize because you knit something outside the terms of one particular contest.

A, definitely -- but why not knit it because you like it? Whether it's "lace" or not shouldn't matter.

I go with A. Lace is deliberate and delicate. Super big needles are just super big needles. If Steve doesn't like it, let him start his own contest.

I am just catching up, and you closed comments on your Kiama post, but I just had to say that these lines are quite possibly the funniest I've read in a long time: "On Sunday I went out with my kids for Mother's Day, and I had just the loveliest time. They wrote me charming cards, spoke civilly to me for a full morning, took me for brunch and gave me flowers. Nobody screamed, there was no drama, and nobody told me that they were pregnant, addicted to something or dropping out of school to follow a sexy beat poet/tree planter across Canada. It's taken almost 21 years to get a Mother's day like that, and it was pretty posh."

I can relate! Wanted to post them, with a link to your blog, to my Facebook, but somehow felt people who didn't know me or read your blog might not quite know what to make of it! :-)

Sorry, Steve, lacy is not the same as lace.

D. Steven doesn't really want this contest. He wants another contest that has different rules. Perhaps he should start his own?

C. Open gauge is lacey, and often a component of a larger lace project, but that sweater isn't lace. Sorry.

A. Sorry, Steven. Suck it up.

Sorry Steven... I'm for C. Good luck, though!!!

I'm throwing another A on the pile. Sorry, Steven. Up until 10 or so years ago, I thought lace could only be created through tatting! But I have to agree that lace, in knitting, is created through intentional YOs and decreases...the other is just loose knitting. I do not, however, think that knitting lace requires superfine yarn...if that helps at all...although I don't suppose it does...

Another vote for C - sorry dude.

C....Sorry, Dude. It's a "lacy" sweater, but it's not lace.

A - sorry, guy. Nice sweater, but not "lace."

I gotta go with Elizabeth Zimmermann. But that said, I would never enter this contest because I knitted lace (or did some facsimile thereto) for the Olympics and I was close to stabbing myself in the forearm with a fork to get out of ever having to do it again. So I say, if someone WANTS to knit lace, by any definition, he or she should be counted.

Maybe.

Glad to be definitive. Not.

C. And only because its kinder than A, I think.

Put me down for C. Here's to democracy.

I have to go with A, and really, whoever is running a contest does get to make the rules. That is just the way life is.....

A - loose knitting just isn't lace....Sorry.

A. After a look at the pattern I have to say, it's a pretty sweater but it ain't lace.

I vote A. Lace without holes is not lace...and if there is any doubt, look at lace made with needles 200 years ago and look,,! There are HOLES.

bjr

A is the only way I could possibly vote.

A. Lace is on purpose and planned, not just because you happen to have holes in your fabric.

I'd have to go with C with a leaning toward B. Holes really are just holes, and they were intentional enough, but that sweater isn't all that lacey, really. Sorry.

I'm going C but the leaning is toward A unfortunately your not going to beat the shop rules.

Go against Elizabeth? Don't think so. A.

This is where lacy vs. lace comes into play. The sweater Steven's gunning for is lacy, but not lace (IMO). I have to say A. Sorry Steven.

C all the way.

B

I'm thinking C. The sweater looks "lacey" as in an impression of lace. But real lace it isn't. I'd like to hear what Veronik has to say.

Sorry Steven, I'm voting C. If you showed that sweater to a knitter (without Stephanie's setup) and asked "what kind of knitting is that", I don't think anyone would say lace, they'd say "uh... cables??"

Was almost a C but I think I've got to go A. Excellent attempt Steven!!

A

Yeah, I gotta go with the store on this. It's "lacy" but not LACE. I actually have a name for stockinette or garter done on too-big needles: Cheater's Lace.

Now, he could turn it into lace by just throwing some YOs, SSKs, and K2togs in there between the cables.

With the majority on this StevenA (whom I think I will meet in Port Ludlow in July-woot!) A. Planned. Yarnovers, decreases. Sorry dude.

Sheesh, get real dude. Do you really want to fudge on the rules of the contest? I would be interested to see if Veronika thinks that sweater is a "lace " piece?

Gotta go with answer "A" also. It's important, I think, that knitters have Standards, ya know?

Wow, I am rarely this traditionalist, but I have to go with "A." The Zimmerman definition is very logical and all that, but I think the point is that lace is a technique where, if you make a mistake, it takes twenty minutes and two glasses of wine to fix. Or, you are a yarn guru and have the wisdom of years and yards of lace and it takes you ten seconds to fix it and jealous nearby knitters take aim at you with their DPNs.

If it's a competition for producing yardage of lace, I think the hardcore definition makes sense. Lace is a labor of love. Large gauge just doesn't cut it.

A. Just a traditionalist at heart.

I vote for A.

B!

If he thinks he is knitting lace, and therefore participating in the contest, then saying it "doesn't count" is, in part, constricting his right to knit whatever his definition of fun, good, and in this case, lace knitting is.

I pick 'A'. That's why I have never tried it and I don't want to try it. Lace does not intrigue me.

Stephen,
Would your name still be Stephen if you spelled it Stievin? Not really. It would sound the same but not be the same. Tuff up Dude. No whining. Learn to actually make lace..it is a good skill and will teach you patience. Be grateful that you are not required to really make lace with bobbins! Don't try to make it work out just because you want it to be your way...let's be grownup about it. Lace has stable holes that are deliberately created, not just happen to be there! Just as the correct way to spell your name is Stephen...not Steven or Stefan, or Stefen or Stievin. There is a correct way to do nearly everything which is considered a craft...learn to make the holes properly, dear.

Steven,
Did you understand that I deliberately misspelled your name as Stephen? My choice is A, Dude.

Definitely A.

Absolutely A.

Beautiful sweater, but that doesn't change the answer: A. You can knit lace in all kinds of yarn weights, but loosey goosey knitting doesn't make it lace knitting.

Knit the sweater for a different contest and triumph, but it isn't lace.

Definately A. That sweater is soooo not lace. Loosely knit fabic is, well, loosley knit fabric. Lace is something else, altogether different.

Definitely "A", and for the reason stated by Deb. Lace knitting must involve the deliberate unknitting of the last bunch of rows because you are just...one...stitch...off and the pattern won't come out right unless you fix it and right there you see where you messed up so you have to get the blasted thing back to that point.

This ritual unknitting is accompanied by alternating choruses of sobs and curse words.

A. Veronik's sweater, and even scribble "lace" are lacey but not lace. Lovely, lacey, but not lace.

Gotta go with A!

A!

A, I'm afraid. But hats off to you for fighting your corner. If you really want to enter the contest, pick another pattern and go for the glory. Good luck!

D....what ever kind of prize is it? Must be something really great to want to win so much you quibble with the rules. Steven honey, if you are after quantity in as short a time as possible, maybe you should consider crochet?

My vote is C.

A all the way!

I vote C & add that EZ would be deliriously proud of Stevens effort to rock a definition.

A.

A. Sorry Steven, but I just think lace is created more deliberately than just using a larger than called for needle. Otherwise, as people have already said, too many things that aren't deliberate (wonky gauge and dropped stitches, for example) count.

A. Sorry, Lacy yes, Lace no!

I have to go with C

Answer: A

I'll go with C, largely because the EZ definition seems a bit on the rigid side.

However, I agree with someone else who said the pattern Steven wants to do is "lacey", so I can see why he thinks it is also lace. Is this another triumph for the English language, where a thing can be lacey without being lace?

Gotta go with C on this one.

Sorry, Steven, but I have to go with A. My definition of lace is yarnovers and accompanying decreases.

I tend to agree with Elizabeth Zimmermann.

C. I sort of agree that maybe there's other ways to make lace than yarn-overs, but really dude. That's a cabled sweater...

Pretty sweater, but not lace.

My first thought when I saw the sweater was cable, not lace. I'd have to go with C. Sorry about that.

I agree with Cindy. C, with strong leanings to A. Either way, cables are not lace. No matter how loose, cables are not lace.

B. I'd call it lace. Numerous shawls are made with portions of stockinette, which isn't lace, but the object as a whole is considered a lace object. The non-lace portion of this sweater is cabling instead of stockinette, which shouldn't disqualify it as a lace object. Non, if the lace were only a very small portion of it, then it would be lacy, not lace, or trimmed with lace. But since the lace is an integral part of the entire garment, it has to be lace. Some sweaters have holes made with yo but they aren't lace as a whole (think raglan sweaters), so I'm not buying the restriction that the holes have to be made with yo's. If the holes are there on purpose, and makes up more than 50% of the garment (my arbitrary percentage designation), then it's lace.

I'd have to say B

I'm going with C, with leanings towards A.

B. I think Elizabeth Zimmerman's description of making lace is one way of doing it. To limit the making of lace to only one way of doing it is anti-creative. If you meant to make lace, however you accomplish it, it's lace. Go Stephen!

I, too, firmly vote for (A).

A, definitely....it isn't lace unless you have to keep counting the stitches on your needle to make sure you haven't missed a yo or a dec. :o)

Big sloppy knitting is not lace. Definitely A.

I vote for A.

C.

Definitely A, although I am torn by the strategy of C.

Intrigued by the number of people who voted with apology.

Resoundingly A. (But the sweater is lovely in its own right.)

Sorry Steven, but it is A. If Elizabeth Zimmerman said it, well, your only hope is that Barbara Walker might loosen up the definition for you somewhat. But loose knitting is not what I think of when I visualize lace. So, if you enter someone else contest you follow their rules. Don't like their rules, start your own contest with your rules.

Definitely A. And while the comment about crochet eating up yardage is so on point, I certainly wouldn't learn how to crochet just to enter and hopefully win the shop's contest! Nope, I'd much rather knit what I enjoy and have another beer!!

Definitely A. "Lace" that is not created to be purposely stable in its own right is not lace. Otherwise all my dropped stitches or incorrect gauge could be lace. I think that sweater is lacey or lace-like, very pretty though. Good effort but for this contest, suck it up and pick another pattern.

A. Definitely A.

Add another vote for A... that just ain't "lace."

I would say C, but I haven't seen the pattern. Big knitting does not equal lace.

Here's a question: is this lace?

http://knitty.com/ISSUEwinter07/PATTjeanie.html

Gorgeous, challenging, yarn hog, cables, open, shawl and not a yarnover to be found. I would say yes, but what do you all think?

A. Steven, man-up and pick something that is LACE. Loose isn't lace.

I started out a straight A, but I'm in a mellow frame of mind and I've drifted towards a C.
But don't ask again - you might catch me on a bad day!

A. If it weren't a contest, I'd say who cares and what a lovely sweater you made.

A all the way. Face it.

big needles with smaller yarn = fake lace. That's what I call this technique when I use it in a prayer shawl.

A. Lace often results in an open fabric, but not all open is lace. As others said, it's the process that makes it lace.

Dude, its cables. Start your own contest. A

I'm gonna have to go with A.

You might convince me that there are ways to make lace that aren't purely yarn overs and paired decreases, and then I'd switch to C.

But that pattern? That is a cabled sweater, and not a lace one. Big needles + normal knitting =/= lace.

My vote is D. There is a difference between lace and lacey (or lace-like, lace-esque, etc.) That sweater is lacey, not lace. Say lace a few times, it starts to sound weird. Anyhow, lace seems to be defined as deliberately created holes in fabric, lacey as a fabric which is open enough to see through.

D.
Estonian Shell Stitch p116
(with reverse Butterfly Stripe for strands p79)
"Colour Knitting Techniques"
by Margaret Radcliffe

broomstick lace method for knitting

EZ being the Tony Soprano of knitting it's either "A", or get those cement shoes ready. I also agree with "C" cause there is no way my son would agree to wear a lace sweater. Sorry Steve, no go.

A, without a doubt.
And don't even ask Jared Flood to weigh in - he said something about the Juneberry being "true lace" because it has patterning on both sides, without any of those wussy purl rows....

A... for sure... A

Sorry, I have to go with A.

I have to go with A also.

A; Lace is made up of deliberate hole, not a loosely knit piece. Been knitting for 63 years. Don't change the rules now!!!!11

A. I would say the sweater is 'lace weight', but not lace.

C. Beautiful sweater but not lace.

I would define that pattern as "lacy," being a garment that looks like lace, without actually being made up of "stable holes."

Anything hand knit that makes a transparent fabric I would define as "lacy," since it gives the illusion of holes. (A good example might be projects with dropped stitches.)

C, with a strong leaning to A. Steven, dude, all power to you for wanting to knit such a fine, lovely pullover but it's cabled and I can't see any lacy bits, just translucency.
(And steph? Nearly 1200 comments - good luck to whoever tallies the voting...)

C, but maybe I could be convinced to vote for A. Steven, great sweater but it is a cabled sweater with the emphasis on cable. Happy Knitting.

I am keeping an open mind and voting for C, but I could have gone with A also. Sorry Steven.

A Sorry Steven, but the point is "stable holes". In bobbin lace you make them by twisting threads and placing pins: when you take the pins out, the holes stay put - a bit like twisitng yarn by making yarnovers and knitting into them, or slipping stitches. I have a lovely scarf pattern where the holes are made by knitting on two sizes of needles, but it's not the same as true lace. the equivalent would be bobbin lace where you twist the thread the wrong way on an edging picot and when you take the pin out it unravels: it makes a hole,but doesn't hold the surrounding threads, so you have to frog it. Just knit the sweater and enjoy. Life's too short to worry about competition.

C. Sorry Steven, but if loose is all it takes, I could knit stuff meant to be felted and just not felt it until after the contest, and win that way, which just wouldn't be fair, would it?

A every time. Steven would maybe enjoy a lace pattern and keep the other one for another time.

A

Another vote for A.

I'm going with A. Sorry Steven.

C. Willing to consider another option but this is not it.

I'm going with the C with a leaning towards A vote.. sorry but that pattern is cables end of story.

A. Just plain A...I saw someone do that giant i cord hoop thingie, with a big hoop and sock yarn and call it lace...Nope....not lace!

I'm going with C.

A. def'n'ly.

I vote for A. Yarn-overs create very distinct holes that are truly worthy of their own "lace" category.

C

I go with A. Sorry, Steven!

Not that my opinion is really needed, as comments are on the downslide toward 1200 as I type this, but.... I see what Steven means about the (gorgeous) sweater looking lacy between the cables. I do. However, being the traditionalist I am (daughters would probably use the term "fogey"), I have to go with C. I'm sorry. Truly I am. I think I'm stuck on the "stable" and "deliberate" aspects. I supposed it could be argued that knitting with larger than specified needles for a particular yarn is deliberately making holes, but I'm not opening that can of worms. My heart says C.

Wow, ask for a vote and you get thousands of responses!

Anyway, I vote C. I feel a little on the fence about what exactly counts as lace in knitting. I do like the definition of creating holes in knitting making it a deliberate thing and not the result of big needles, and yet, I would probably still describe that cabled sweater as lacy. Still, I think it makes sense for the rules of the contest to be something with more yarn overs (although I think they went a little too far with the buttonholes counting as lace). Sorry Steven. If you really want to knit that pattern, maybe turn it into socks? That would count. :)

C with a tincture of A.

If I can see undies, it's lace. And I can see undies "whispering" between the cables. Not difficult, challenging lace, but lace.

If I can see undies, it's lace. And I can see undies "whispering" between the cables. Not difficult, challenging lace, but lace. B.

Steven's LYS happens to be one of mine also, and I got the same email. The contest rules go with "A", but I think that the fact that he's just about the only guy has something to do with everyone being against him. But I really have to go with "C". And make sure you buy all the yarn from that store - you'll get double yardage if you do!

A.
Sorry but the holes have to be deliberate. Just using a big needle shouldn't count.

A.

I applaud Steve for sticking up for what he feels is right and for what he wants but gotta go with A.

Definitely A, unfortunately for Steve. With respect to button bands and the like, I would add in that in order for a piece to be a "Lace Piece," it has to have most of its right-side stitches be yos or a variety of decrease, not stockinette or garter.

A. Steven, I'm sorry, but lace happens when you deliberately create and place stable holes on purpose. Suck it up and pick another pattern. That's not lace.

A. It's only lace if there are yarn-overs and k2togs, possible along with SSK and K1 SL1 PSSO.

Knitting lace is fun and I can't imagine lace without them!

Sorry man, "A".

Dude, you are totally out of luck. I've got to go with A.

That being said, I feel like we Knitters need to think about lace a little more now, especially now that we're using dropped stitches as a "decorative technique" *shudder*

Sorry Dude, I'm going with C... and if you pushed me even a little bit I'd go to A. Also... them's as come up with the contest and hand out the prizes make the rules... if you don't like it... don't participate. Good Luck!

B, knitting is about individually, not rigid rules!

I think C, a little A. Knitting with big needles a lot of times looks more like a netting than lace.

C...and please remember that knitting is FUN!

I vote for A. Elizabeth Zimmermann is right about lace. However my definition of lace would be: that lace is a series of yarn-overs with accompanying decreases used to make holes. However, these holes or lace projects are not only for decoration but fun to make!!

I'm with the B underdogs. I'm all for knitters defining terms for themselves, and I support you, Steven!

A. Loose knitting is not lace knitting. It's mesh. Yeah mesh could be considered lace, but fishing nets are mesh, not lace.

Personally, I think lace is what you think it should be, just as life is what you make of it. However I have to say that I am not surprised by the amount of very slightly/just barely disguised statements that tout the superiority of their opinion(s). Because, well, that's what this comes down to... personal opinion. That sweater will not work using the definition that is at the heart of the matter. It can be considered lace, but not to them. Unfortunately, another pattern will have to be picked in order to pacify the people in charge. *shrug* Unfortunately, such is life... compromise isn't always possible.

C, because I'm open-minded, but with a strong inkling towards A. At first I thought we were going to have the even more esoteric debate of "knitted lace" vs. "lace knitting"

I love lace, but I guess my definition of lace is a little loose. To me, lace is a piece of fabric with deliberately made, relatively stable holes in the fabric. It doesn't really make too much of a difference to me if you made the holes by knitting yarn overs, or if you made them deliberately by using larger needles, it's still lace to me. (This definition would also eliminate mistakes such unintentional drop stitches. You made a mistake, you didn't intentionally set out to make holes.) That being said though, Steven still has to go with the contest rules and the sweater is mostly cables so I guess I have to vote C. I must say though that the first time I saw the picture of the sweater I thought it was lace between the cables!

C. Sorry Steve!

A.

I appreciate Steven's argument, but I have to go with A. Yarn overs can be paired with accompanying decreases, or not, but it's the deliberate hole a yarn over provides that makes it "lace" for me.

Steven, why not throw some faggoting lace (simple yo, K2tog, or similar construction) in between the cables as a compromise?

D. I think lace can be defined as holes punctuating solid fabric. Looking at the picture, the cables are solid, and the work in between is open. Therefore, lace!
Have you considered adding a few yarn overs and knit two togethers to make the pattern fit the contest rules? Maybe some nice eyelets along the bottom.

It's a beautiful pattern, but not lace. I'm going with A.

ummm... just a sec... sorry, had to go grab a beer myself...

A

okay, okay, not really a beer at 10:30 in the morning, but still... A

wow, tough one (and I didn't read all 1220 comments, but I'm sure it's been said before). I've knit some garter shawls on big needles and the designers call it a 'lace effect' but trust me - it's a boring garter shawl. So, what Steven has in a lace effect sweater, but not lace work... so D, maybe C (except, you don't really have me, I don't think).

A. I'd say what he's creating is "lacey" or "lace like", but not lace per se.

A, with a slight lean towards C. As others said, there is "lace effect" or "laciness" when knit on big needles, but it's not lace!

C with A leanings. Big knitting and lacy knitting are totally different thigs. Sorry Steven!

I'm voting A. You can using big needles get something that looks lacy but you did not put in the effort of actually knitting lace.

Hey, I was poking through your projects page on Ravelry (a creeper, I know) and I noticed that you really only knit wearable items (blankets are kind of wearable). I'm knitting a Sheldon right now, and often go through phases of knitting toys. Why is it that you don't seem to delve into these kinds of projects?

B. I agree with Steven. Lacy is the description of Lace when talking about a particular article of clothing. ie: That shirt has a lacy feel to it. You would never say that corderoy is lacy--no holes. I don't care how the holes get there, ife they are there, they are lace. Do the rulse say that lace is constituted by yarn over only. If not this sweater should count. Stick to your guns Steven!!

I'm going with A (with a slight sympathy to C but I'm just not there for casting a full vote for it).
Sorry, Steve. There's lots of great patterns out there; knit the one you want and pick another for the contest, Bud.

Sorry dude, im going with A

As with most of the comments I've read, I go with A (and a bit of C) That sweater, to my thinking, is cabled, not lace. Sorry.

I sat and debated with my self...

I'm choosing A

I have to got with A as the answer, because it fits my definition of lace. There are definitely other ways to make holes, and the sweater in question could definitely be described as 'openwork', but not lace.

I vote A. The scribble lace doesn't qualify in my mind as "real lace" either. Things can be lace-Y (i.e. hole-y) without being "real lace".

I don't know if you really have to have the corresponding decreases if you don't mind the thing growing wildly in odd directions, but you definitely need to have purposefully made independent holes from YOs (in my humble, yet opinionated, opinion).

Gotta go A.

As with so many others, a dual choice: C with an A bias. Sorry, Steven.

A. The guys running the contest are the ones who make the rules...You get to choose whether to participate according to the rules.

A. Thin yarn on big needles is loose gauge and may be lace-Y, but it isn't LACE. Sorry Steven.

Sorry Steven--although I enjoyed the orange hot pants and don't know how I missed seeing them at the Maryland Sheep and wool--the answer is definitely C.

A.

Those be cables. Pick out one of the eleventy billion lace patterns out there, Steven.

I think at this point Stephen might need an entire keg, not just one beer...
Oh, and my vote is A. It's lacy, but not lace.
Sorry dude. Just make sure you are drinking good beer.

D. D for DUDE what a load of BOLLOCKS! Lace is intentional, lace is intricate, lace is not just stitches knit on very large needles that make it look like lace but isn't lace.

I did see the orange variegated hotpants at MSaW...was that you?

C leaning towards A here too.

A for sure.

That is my LYS too, and the contest is fun. Everyone entering gets a small prize -- I got a handmade stitch marker last year. :-)

They are pretty forgiving about what lace is and isn't -- they accepted my lace scarf knitted in a soft cotton tape yarn on size 9's last year. I had no illusions of winning, it was just fun to be part of it.

I'm sorry, Stephen, but I'm with the C's here, possibly the A's.

I am thinking that we are looking at something that is lacey vs something that would be referred to as lace in the common vernacular. Then again, how we use words to describe knitting is evolving so I could be wrong.

A, A, and of course, A.

C gets my vote , Sorry Steve, beautiful sweater though!

As far as I'm concerned, the "A's" have it!!!

D -- Stephen, what does it matter? if you like the sweater, knit it! Most people will not give a fig what you call it, what the pattern is, and over this whole debate. The majority of people out there are non-knitters who will just be amazed you knit it, amazed a man knits, and probably say something like "I could never do that" or "you could have bought it for less and not had to do all that work".

I learned a long time ago that we can argue semantics all day, but no one is ever going to match your knitting to the pattern to find your mistakes, and probably most of us won't agree with someone else's strict definitions anyways. We can all find exceptions to anything.

Its a lacy sweater. Whether you think its lace or not, it is pretty and I suggest you get that beer Steph mentioned and start knitting.

I vote D. When I first glanced at the photo I thought it looked "lacy", but as I looked more closely I could see that the open, airy parts were plain knitting, not patterned.

I think it is not "lace" just as pudding that is "lemony" but has no actual lemon is not lemon pudding. It is "lacy" without having actual "lace."

C..sorry, because a man knitting deserves encouragement, but that sweater, however pretty is just not lace... Would I knit it? Yes. would I call it lace? no.

Just as a Clapotis (though it has holes, increases, decreases, even some yarnovers) is lacy, but not lace...the same with the Summit...

This got me thinking, really. No, I would limit the description "lace" to delibrate patterns of increases an decreases forming a predefined motif.A. Most certainly.
Good luck to Steve.

A. made it close to C.
sorry, but I am a lacemaker in the traditional way, too - with bobbins on a pillow. Just tangling a few threads, however loose and open, doesn't make lace.
same with weaving: very loosely woven tabby doesn't make lace. Lace requires a certain stability to maintain the feature which defines lace in any textile technique: the existence of intended holes in defined satble places and sizes in contrast to surrounding denser fabric.
wether or what kind of pattern there should be, is another question. that's why i am close to vote for C

Definately C. Having seen the pic of the sweater, I'd be hard-pressed even to call it "lacey," which in my head refers to something that looks like lace, but isn't necessarily. Clapotis might be another example of a lacey-looking knit, but there aren't 'holes' in it; just dropped stitches. But again, I lean toward calling the scribble-lace lace, so maybe consistency is just not to be found. :-)

Juneberry--now that is lace!!

Happy knitting, whatever it is1

As much as I like that sweater (it is on my list...which, I know, is not saying all that much given how large the list is...lol), I have to vote for A. It is lacey or lace-like, but in the end is not really lace. Sorry, Steven.

To me it would be A. If not, then I have a lot of lace out there in the world, because lord knows there are many dropped stitches of mine out there.

Todd

I go with A. Sorry, Steven.

Sorry, Steven, but I think lace needs to be "made", as in doing something different than just knit and purl. I'd call what you're doing "openwork", which is different.

C, I agree that there are variations of lace. that sweater though is not really lacy.

Sorry, Steven. If I knit an Aran sweater on size 15's (US), it still ain't lace. A all the way, baby. Pick another pattern.

Absolutely "A". I love the look of lace and while the patterns are sometimes simple, i.e. a few simple YO's, many lace patterns are extremely complicated and those that are able to knit these complicated designs (sadly I'm not one of them) should not be thrown in with knitters that simply use needles large enough to make a hole.

My vote is "C". There are other ways to make lace, but that sweater is a cable sweater!

A

But does it really matter, Steven? Knit what you like. Years from now, you'll still have a great sweater, but who will remember whether you participated in a silly shop contest? Shop somewhere else and knit what you like!!

C, with leanings toward A. Also mention that it appears the intent of the contest is to encourage knitting items other than constructed sweaters. Those can be lace, but lace usually comes in other forms. Also, they appear to be encouraging use of finer gauges with this contest. That should be considered too. The rules don't seem to encourage knitting with bulky, in other words.

C, dude. Totally C. I hear ya, but rules is rules.

B- definitions should and do evolve. Also, accepting new parameters is key to developing new concepts. Change is the essence of art.

I'm afraid I vote C! Perhaps they will have a "Cable" contest next....

A.

Lace is created by intentionally creating the solid and void (holes) areas in the design. Using larger needles creates a more airy/floppy garment. And besides, cables shouldn't be knit loosely or they lose what makes them nice - a contrasting elevation from their surrounding stitches.

Sorry Steven. "Queen Elizabeth" Zimmerman is right.

Late but firm: Nice try. No way.

a) are you REALLY calling EZ necessarily rigid in her definitions? I'd like to see you do that in a room full of knitters. For reals.
and b) lace has art to it, a plan, a pattern, as well as deliberate holes. That's a lovely sweater and Veronique is a formidable artist. But those holes are not holes of art they are holes of tension. Clear disqualification.

Gotta go with A

C....Sorry, Steven! I wanted to see it your way but just couldn't do it!

I just have to say that I'm from the same city as Steven and frequent the shop he works in--I love this guy. (Even if I don't agree with his definition of what lace is.)

A, possibly C. Lace is fabric with deliberately created holes, not merely simply woven fabric.

A. Sorry Steven. Its a very nice sweater.

Definitely answer A, for the reason you pointed out: loose gauge means stitches can "grow", so those holes aren't stable. Sorry Steven!

C. It's a very nice sweater, but it's not really lace.

I say B!!!

I Pick B!!!

I really don't think I'd call it lace, but I think I'd let it slide for the contest. I mean, knitting is supposed to be fun, right? Not rigid and rule-y. Relax, knit a little.

Sorry, A it is. Just because something is see through doesn't make it lace IMHO.

A. Lacey and Lace are 2 different things

C. All the way.

I would define that sweater as maybe gauzy or sheet. Is gauze lace? I don't think it is. It is a great summer cover up though.

A. It is lacy, but it isn't lace.

found your site on del.icio.us today and really liked it.. i bookmarked it and will be back to check it out some more later

C. My first lace shawl had make ones that weren't twisted and made the holes, not yarn overs. But large needles making loose stitches doesn't quite get me to lace.

Well, technically A i am sorry to say. I would be secretly OUTRAGED if someone showed off their "lace" garment that was just stockinette on huge needles after I have worked miles of yarn into something truly lace and eye crossing. I'm petty, I know, I have learner to embrace it.However...that's a fantastic sweater. And when you have the wearewithal to tackle that sucker- you should just do it, whatever you call it. If you want to get technical about it, then change the cuffs to lace and wave your glory in font of everyone else's noses because you will have an amazing garment. Looking forward to reading more from you Mr. S

C. There msst be other ways to make "stable" holes other than simply YOs but I'm a bit intimidated to argue with my den mother, EZ.

On the other hand, the sweater is gorgeous! So,I say, go with your HEART, Stephen. If you want to knit it, KNIT IT! Who needs a stinking $50 contest prize anyway? :P

C. There must be other ways to make "stable" holes other than simply YOs but I'm a bit intimidated to argue with den mother, EZ.

On the other hand, the sweater is gorgeous! So,I say, go with your HEART, Stephen. If you want to knit it, KNIT IT! Who needs a stinking $50 contest prize anyway? :P

Hope I'm not too late. definitely A.Not even a question in my mind.

I've gotta say C although I am leaning pretty heavily towards A. That's not lace.

A. As per EZ.

Sorry Steven - A and only A

A. There is a difference between deliberately creating holes and getting holes because your needles are big and that difference is that the former is lace and the latter is not.

I don't think there's anything wrong with knitting something up that's gauzy or meshy by using big needles but lace is stable. Yes, they're both holes but they do not look the same.

Besides, I think it muddies the issue if every existing stitch pattern is suddenly a lace pattern as well as long as you're using big needles. Garter stitch is not lace.

I definantly have to go with A. Sorry man.

I'm going with C, unpopular as it might be.

I'm going with A. Following a complicated, crazy-ass chart with gobs of symbols should be part of the lace knitting definition, IMHO.

D. Something else ..

If you can see through it, it's lace.

Sorry Steven, I've got to go with C. It's a cabled sweater, not lace.

A.

C is my vote. It's a cabled sweater.

I am all for Option A, to be honest! Just looking at the sweater I would consider it as lace. Isn't a hole a hole?

A definitely. lace knitting with the yarnovers and decreases is far more complex and time consuming than the big needle sweater (which is nice too, but not lace). I think the store's definition should stand - it is there contest after all.

Sorry Dude.. A it is! I know it sucks, so suck down a beer, suck it up and find a new pattern! Personally I am doing the Lyra by Niebling... THAT"S lace!

A - lace is an action not an accident.

I think we're talking about Lace vs. lacey.

If I spent tons of time and brain cells creating a gorgeous lace shawl with complicated charts and p3togtbl all over the place, I wouldn't want stockinette on giant needles to get the same credit as what I did.